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Forum » One-Third of Americans Making $250,000 Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck, Survey Finds
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Thread: One-Third of Americans Making $250,000 Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck, Survey Finds

post 1662301233 06-03-2022, 01:39 PM
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#121
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Originally Posted By TBO1313⏩
I live in Mississippi dude. I couldn't get further away from cities if I tried lmfao
then you should have plenty of low dollar lots
post 1662301333 06-03-2022, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted By donblaximus⏩
Are you this dense? Nobody is arguing if lower earner's wages are adjusted for inflation better than higher earners. I acknowledged as such but that still doesnt make up the gap. They had to adjust beacuse you simply cant live on the minimum wage from 2 years ago. But that still doesnt mean their quality of life if the same as a $100k earner. That is absolute BS. If you really believe that, lay out the math to help me understand how the $100k earner and the $40k earner have the same quality of life. Use the math and line it out.

Here ill do it for you (same family of 4 per month) and i will use extreme cases towards the $40k earner

$40k earner
- $k4k (10% tax rate)
$36k = $3k per month take home

$3k
- $1000 (rent)
-1200 (food)
-400 (gas)
-200 (utilities, phone, etc)


That leaves them with $200 a month left and thats being super conservative


$100k a year earner
-30k (taxes - super high since they probably have write offs in real life)
$70k a year
$5800 a month
- 1200 (retirement)
-2500 (mortgage and taxes)
-1200 (food)
-400 (gas)
-200 (utilities)

$300 a month left over and THATs with a retirement savings and a mortgage on a house in a nicer neighborhood.

So tell me, how does the $40k earner have the same quality of life?
You used the most distorted example possible, where neither have kids. If you make 40k you aren’t paying for your own kids, the 100k household does. Do you have any idea how expensive daycare is? And 30 percent is not a “super high” tax rate for 100k household, 35 percent is more like it including state taxes etc. The 100k household wouldn’t get the child tax credit, the other household does. And 100k earner isn’t paying enough mortgage interest to deduct anything
Best lifts:
Bench press: 315x5
Squat: 465x1
Strict press: 205x5
Deadlift: 405x13 (conv tap'n'go with straps)
post 1662302123 06-03-2022, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted By SaviorSelfJT⏩
You used the most distorted example possible, where neither have kids. If you make 40k you aren’t paying for your own kids, the 100k household does. Do you have any idea how expensive daycare is? And 30 percent is not a “super high” tax rate for 100k household, 35 percent is more like it including state taxes etc. The 100k household wouldn’t get the child tax credit, the other household does. And 100k earner isn’t paying enough mortgage interest to deduct anything
You surely cant be serious bro.


2. So the "free" child care is the same as the childcare the $100k earner pays for. Is that the argument? Because I can easily take out the retirement and apply that to childcare. We are having a discussion on quality of life right? (You can take all of the retirement and apply that to the childcare)
3. Uhhh 30% is super high bro. I havent made $100k since I was 26 years old but haven't paid over 30% since making 100k or higher. Last year I made considerably more than that......and my rate was 27%. As a corporate earner 10 years ago, I paid ~22% on $300k. (Texas no
state income tax)
4. The $100k earner's taxed income is less due to them being able to invest in tax deferred accounts. So their tax % is less vs total income.



There is absolutely no way the average family making $100k has the same quality of life as the family making $40k in the same state.

Else why woulndt everyone with a six figure take home just quit and work at chick fil a?
post 1662302943 06-03-2022, 02:16 PM
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#124
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Originally Posted By donblaximus⏩
You surely cant be serious bro.


2. So the "free" child care is the same as the childcare the $100k earner pays for. Is that the argument? Because I can easily take out the retirement and apply that to childcare. We are having a discussion on quality of life right? (You can take all of the retirement and apply that to the childcare)
3. Uhhh 30% is super high bro. I havent made $100k since I was 26 years old but haven't paid over 30% since making 100k or higher. Last year I made considerably more than that......and my rate was 27%. As a corporate earner 10 years ago, I paid ~22% on $300k. (Texas no
state income tax)
4. The $100k earner's taxed income is less due to them being able to invest in tax deferred accounts. So their tax % is less vs total income.



There is absolutely no way the average family making $100k has the same quality of life as the family making $40k in the same state.

Else why woulndt everyone with a six figure take home just quit and work at chick fil a?
100k income

65k after paying 35 percent taxes overall (federal, state, social security et)

5400 per month

2K housing
2K child care
1k food
400 utilities

Your broke

Tell me what I’m missing. Cause I don’t see how you can even afford kids and a home on 100k, the bare minimum qualification for middle class, yet miscers think you are Scrooge mcduck on 100k

What I’m saying is that someone making 40k can afford kids, cause of gov entitlements
Best lifts:
Bench press: 315x5
Squat: 465x1
Strict press: 205x5
Deadlift: 405x13 (conv tap'n'go with straps)
post 1662303243 06-03-2022, 02:26 PM
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Someone without kids making 100k is better off than someone making 40k with kids

I will give you that
Best lifts:
Bench press: 315x5
Squat: 465x1
Strict press: 205x5
Deadlift: 405x13 (conv tap'n'go with straps)
post 1662304003 06-03-2022, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted By SaviorSelfJT⏩
Someone without kids making 100k is better off than someone making 40k with kids

I will give you that
$100k without kids still isn't chit. I make around $200k as a single guy in the midwest and feel broke as phuck, srs. I have a basic home, basic truck, retirement, etc.
post 1662305403 06-03-2022, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted By SaviorSelfJT⏩
100k income

65k after paying 35 percent taxes overall (federal, state, social security et)

5400 per month

2K housing
2K child care
1k food
400 utilities

Your broke

Tell me what I’m missing. Cause I don’t see how you can even afford kids and a home on 100k, the bare minimum qualification for middle class, yet miscers think you are Scrooge mcduck on 100k

What I’m saying is that someone making 40k can afford kids, cause of gov entitlements
So in your illogical world, have the wife stay home, now they are at $50k and boom take all the government incentives while she sits home and watches IPAD and boom profit?
No, what you are missing is logic. You dont care to break down both sides logically.....because the truth will be exposed.
What you just showed is that the $100k family CAN live on their means with kids even with astronomical tax rates and a mortgage.

Are you saying the $40k a year family would also be living in a $2k a month place and have the same level of childcare as the person paying $2k per month?
Recall the entire debate is around whether or not the families have similar living standards right?

Get a grip man. Turn off the news and go out into the real world........
If families cant survive on $100k a year in America..there would be total mayhem on the streets dont you think?!?!?!
post 1662305673 06-03-2022, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted By DrFeeIGood⏩
$100k without kids still isn't chit. I make around $200k as a single guy in the midwest and feel broke as phuck, srs. I have a basic home, basic truck, retirement, etc.
you sound ****ing retarded
post 1662305713 06-03-2022, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted By donblaximus⏩
So in your illogical world, have the wife stay home, now they are at $50k and boom take all the government incentives while she sits home and watches IPAD and boom profit?
No, what you are missing is logic. You dont care to break down both sides logically.....because the truth will be exposed.
What you just showed is that the $100k family CAN live on their means with kids even with astronomical tax rates and a mortgage.

Are you saying the $40k a year family would also be living in a $2k a month place and have the same level of childcare as the person paying $2k per month?
Recall the entire debate is around whether or not the families have similar living standards right?

Get a grip man. Turn off the news and go out into the real world........
If families cant survive on $100k a year in America..there would be total mayhem on the streets dont you think?!?!?!
I didn’t show that they could make ends meet, cause I only listed a few expenses and showed they were out of money. They still have more expenses


Look at this article from 2013
https://www.hawaiireporter.com/it-pa...enefits-in-us/

Adjust for inflation it’s about 100k
I’m not wrong

And people do choose not to work to use benefits, don’t gaslight me into thinking welfare doesn’t exist or that people don’t abuse it
Best lifts:
Bench press: 315x5
Squat: 465x1
Strict press: 205x5
Deadlift: 405x13 (conv tap'n'go with straps)
post 1662306473 06-03-2022, 03:34 PM
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#130
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Originally Posted By SaviorSelfJT⏩
I didn’t show that they could make ends meet, cause I only listed a few expenses and showed they were out of money. They still have more expenses


Look at this article from 2013
https://www.hawaiireporter.com/it-pa...enefits-in-us/

Adjust for inflation it’s about 100k
I’m not wrong

And people do choose not to work to use benefits, don’t gaslight me into thinking welfare doesn’t exist or that people don’t abuse it
You are an absolute classic. You showed they are out of money by taking extremes like the highest tax bracket and higher than average day care. That is hardly "just getting by" As I said, I paid less than your tax rate used at much higher incomes even if i included state income tax.
Are you seriously linking an article from 2013 and asking me to adjust for inflation? Can you not find an article from at least the last few years??!?!? LOL
I never once said welfare doesnt exist and that people dont abuse it.

What we are debating here is whether or not a family bringing in $100k has the same quality of life as the ones bringing in $40k (or perhaps on welfare). It it that hard for you to stick to a topic and prove it?

In the US about 30% of American families bring home over $100k
Are you saying the other 70% use welfare and subsidies?
post 1662306713 06-03-2022, 03:42 PM
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#131
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Originally Posted By donblaximus⏩
You are an absolute classic. You showed they are out of money by taking extremes like the highest tax bracket and higher than average day care. That is hardly "just getting by" As I said, I paid less than your tax rate used at much higher incomes even if i included state income tax.
Are you seriously linking an article from 2013 and asking me to adjust for inflation? Can you not find an article from at least the last few years??!?!? LOL
I never once said welfare doesnt exist and that people dont abuse it.

What we are debating here is whether or not a family bringing in $100k has the same quality of life as the ones bringing in $40k (or perhaps on welfare). It it that hard for you to stick to a topic and prove it?

In the US about 30% of American families bring home over $100k
Are you saying the other 70% use welfare and subsidies?
Your exaggerating my stance and trying to ridicule that. Not going to work

I admitted that without kids, making 100k is better than 40k since the gov only gives handouts to those with kids

Housing and costs for raising kids is so astronomical that someone making 100k is going to have to make drastic lifestyle cuts in other areas to make it work. And yes, many people my age have already signed off on ever having kids because of costs. 2K per month for daycare isn’t unreasonable nowadays, that’s pretty average. 2K for housing isn’t a lot now either. And 400 for utilities is a joke, my utilities have literally tripled from a year ago. From about 33 cents per therm to over a dollar. And the only way your feeding a family on 1000 is out don’t go out and prepare cheap meals. This lifestyle is about as low as it gets

This is the reality of our country now, where young middle class earners can’t afford to start families. I’m not sure why you have a hard time seeing this
Best lifts:
Bench press: 315x5
Squat: 465x1
Strict press: 205x5
Deadlift: 405x13 (conv tap'n'go with straps)
post 1662306813 06-03-2022, 03:45 PM
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I'm gonna assume these people arent that autistic and that the study was using liquidity as the metric and not net worth
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post 1662307203 06-03-2022, 03:52 PM
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#133
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Originally Posted By TugOfPeace⏩
what a failure at money management to not be able to save making quarter million/year
A quarter of a million a year?

That's...230,000 Euros.

Uh-oh. Is this propaganda again? Up there with "the British Empire", "black person in Europe born in the 90s being Jeff Bezos" and "a group of poor people being formidable"?


Uh oh...
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post 1662307303 06-03-2022, 03:54 PM
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#134
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Originally Posted By BullittEV⏩
I'm gonna assume these people arent that autistic and that the study was using liquidity as the metric and not net worth
Liquidity?

Did somebody put a house in your name without you knowing about it, BullittEV?

Uh oh, I smell Nigerian Prince, except the "Nigerians" ain't the ones pullin' the scams; it's the European folk! (Or Asians)


Uh oh...I smell bullsh*t...
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post 1662307363 06-03-2022, 03:55 PM
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#135
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250k$ a year... thats 13k$ a month after taxes....if these motherfukcers cant manage their bank account...then they dont deserve to use the air i breathe,the water i drink and the food i eat.

Those parasites need to be sent to auschwitz and left to rot
Cherish your life. Live to tell your story
post 1662307533 06-03-2022, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted By sloppyjoe1⏩
Doesn't surprise me.

I'm a salesman for my family's swimming pool company so I visit people at their homes regularly. I've noticed a lot of the following the last few years:

People who are in their late twenties/thirty's are in a brand new 600k home in a new development. Newer range rover in the driveway, still unboxing chit from their old home, and they want a 100k swimming pool, plus they have more people coming out for other backyard chit.

The problem I see is that some millenials are trying to life max ASAP. They want the new home, new car, new pool, new landscaping, new cabana, new bbq island, NOW. You've gotta earn the money first. Sure 200k a year sounds great but you don't have the fking money yet. Just because loan companies will give you an approval because of your income it doesn't mean you should take it. How about spacing out purchases? When you do everything all at once, then what? You're bored. You probably end up leaving your spouse because that got old, or you want to move in a few years because your living quarters got old.

People do it to themselves. Making 250k/year is a DREAM if you have the slightest of common sense.
Same chit with millennials crying about housing market


It’s easy to buy a house. You just can’t afford the house you want.


Millennials see their boomer parents lifestyle and think they are entitled to it, and then blame the economy or whatever for why their lives aren’t as good (as nice a house in as nice a neighborhood etc) what they don’t realize is they are seeing their boomers at the finish line and expecting the same thing
post 1662307683 06-03-2022, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted By ListenHereBruh⏩
you sound ****ing retarded
Lol if you are single and 200k in MidWest and feel poor then you’re a phucking idiot


At leas than half that I was:

- maxing 401k
- going on 2 international trips a year
- never stressing about food I bought
- could pursue any hobby I wanted
- lived in one of the most affluent areas walkable to bars , restaurants, etc



Hell out of college in Chicago making like 55k I was comfortable


Now make more but don’t really increase lifestyle. I get it if 200k doesn’t take you far in LA, SF, or NYC. Whatever. But in any other city? That’s on you
post 1662307953 06-03-2022, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted By TBO1313⏩
Where you do live? I live in a low cost of living, poor as hell state and the cheapest running Corolla I found on ******** marketplace was a 2002 with 276k miles for 3500.
Damn you may be right based on quick search. Haven’t looked Craigslist but anything under 10k is barren on Carvana and CarMax.



Biden’s america
post 1662347053 06-04-2022, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted By BullittEV
I'm gonna assume these people arent that autistic and that the study was using liquidity as the metric and not net worth
Originally Posted By HannoCometh⏩
Liquidity?

Did somebody put a house in your name without you knowing about it, BullittEV?

Uh oh, I smell Nigerian Prince, except the "Nigerians" ain't the ones pullin' the scams; it's the European folk! (Or Asians)


Uh oh...I smell bullsh*t...
can someone explain this response? wtf lmao
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post 1662352183 06-04-2022, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted By MEDITATE⏩
250k$ a year... thats 13k$ a month after taxes....if these motherfukcers cant manage their bank account...then they dont deserve to use the air i breathe,the water i drink and the food i eat.

Those parasites need to be sent to auschwitz and left to rot
Lol @ making $250k and losing $94k on taxes

If you're making that kind of money with any regularity, there is all sorts of chit you can do to accumulate assets/equity while offsetting taxes and paying far less. And ability to legally avoid tax scales up as you make more.

Many people making that kind of money aren't even paid as regular employees and are working through corporations or whatever else with even murkier tax setups
post 1662377833 06-05-2022, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted By SaviorSelfJT⏩
Yeah, you can be rich on 100k you just don’t have kids and don’t live in a single family home. Minimize going out and drive a beater.

Do you not realize that is an oxymoron? Someone who must live that lifestyle in order to save money is not rich. If you cant afford kids and a home, you are NOT rich. Nuff said
Lol Wat?!

I can assure you that you can have kids and live decently on $100K a year. We didn't make close to that and did just fine. Were we ballin? No certainly not. But we made do and had a house and some extras. My son went to Catholic school his entire life and played sports every season when he was young. Kids don't need all kinds of expensive things thrown at them.

As for the OP that's just insane to me. I make much much much less than that and manage to live just fine. I don't know how someone can live paycheck paycheck on that amount of money.
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post 1662403843 06-05-2022, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted By donblaximus⏩
I dont think you are grasping where I am coming from. You are literally throwing away money if you are not contributing to tax deferred accounts TO THE MAX. I am not saying you shouldnt have some cash on hand. My initial analysis is that you are not as efficient as you think you are ........ especially if you are paying off cars but not maxing out qualified accounts. Thats all.
I never said anything about being efficient, just saying it’s pretty easy to live comfortably off not much more than $100k and not live paycheck to paycheck
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post 1662404213 06-05-2022, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted By DrFeeIGood⏩
$100k without kids still isn't chit. I make around $200k as a single guy in the midwest and feel broke as phuck, srs. I have a basic home, basic truck, retirement, etc.
what? i'm in california @ around 100k and pay for all my normal stuff plus have like half my income to invest in stupid things. what stupid things are you buying? lol
post 1662405003 06-05-2022, 09:47 PM
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I swear, threads like these expose just how many out of touch retards are on this forum

i’m just gonna be blunt and this is 100% fact

if ur making 250K and living paycheck to paycheck, u are an absolute retard with money and deserve to be broke

There is zero excuse for that chit

even if you were making 100K, forget 250…. 100K is still a lot of fkin money

you ppl complaining about money issues making six figures…. The problem ain’t the money. The problem is that ur just chit at managing it
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post 1662432873 06-06-2022, 12:40 PM
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#145
  1. CulturalDecay
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As usual with these threads, it's somewhere in the middle - and it also depends what the exact definition of "paycheck to paycheck" is.

Depending upon where you live, $100k isn't chit, and in the most expensive areas, $250k is going to be very tight if you have kids.

I'm a single guy (not married) who did over $200k last year in California, I may hit $250k this year, and while I live comfortably and don't have to worry about bills, inflation, gas prices, etc. I'm not living a luxurious lifestyle at all.

I think people underestimate just how much it costs to live in high COL areas / states.

So if you break it down, after Federal/State taxes in CA, if you are filing status single, $200k becomes a take-home of $132,000. Then take out your % for 401k, Roth IRA, HSA, Employee Stock Purchase Program, etc. Basically everything here would be going into savings/retirement, so definitely a good problem to have if after all those contributions you are feeling less flush with cash.
Then assume you own a home, property taxes are also high here - which is 1%...doesn't sound like much but when even a "starter" home is $1million+ that's $10k.
Homeowners insurance (Earthquake if you want it), car insurance, car registration fees, fuel prices are all ridiculously high in CA. Your car registration fees are dependent on the value of your car, my Audi cost me $800 last year, just to register.
Currently the AVERAGE gas price for regular gas is $6.34 in the Bay Area. Cost me $83 to fill a small 12 Gallon tank yesterday.
The Mortguage on my house is $3,500/month which is damn good relative to what other people are paying since I bought it 6-7 years ago, it's more than doubled in price since. So $3.5k x 12 = $42,000/yr.
Groceries?
Clothes?
Entertainment?
Car Maintenance / oil changes / tires?
Unexpected Expenses?
Vacation?
Savings?

Where is the extravagant lifestyle in that? Sure, at $200k you get the opportunity to save money, contribute to your 401k / IRA / Investment programs, but you are HARDLY living any kind of a luxurious lifestyle in the Bay Area / LA / NYC.
post 1662433413 06-06-2022, 12:48 PM
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#146
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Originally Posted By meanstringbean⏩
Not only that but education also breeds entitlement which leads to higher spending



You work hard or have a good job or are smart = you deserve to spend $ on things you can’t afford
Just because you can buy it doesn't mean you can afford it
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Because you had secret evidence, and documents /
On how they raped the continents, and it's the prominent /
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post 1662434163 06-06-2022, 01:01 PM
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#147
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Originally Posted By CulturalDecay⏩
As usual with these threads, it's somewhere in the middle - and it also depends what the exact definition of "paycheck to paycheck" is.

Depending upon where you live, $100k isn't chit, and in the most expensive areas, $250k is going to be very tight if you have kids.

I'm a single guy (not married) who did over $200k last year in California, I may hit $250k this year, and while I live comfortably and don't have to worry about bills, inflation, gas prices, etc. I'm not living a luxurious lifestyle at all.

I think people underestimate just how much it costs to live in high COL areas / states.

So if you break it down, after Federal/State taxes in CA, if you are filing status single, $200k becomes a take-home of $132,000. Then take out your % for 401k, Roth IRA, HSA, Employee Stock Purchase Program, etc. Basically everything here would be going into savings/retirement, so definitely a good problem to have if after all those contributions you are feeling less flush with cash.
Then assume you own a home, property taxes are also high here - which is 1%...doesn't sound like much but when even a "starter" home is $1million+ that's $10k.
Homeowners insurance (Earthquake if you want it), car insurance, car registration fees, fuel prices are all ridiculously high in CA. Your car registration fees are dependent on the value of your car, my Audi cost me $800 last year, just to register.
Currently the AVERAGE gas price for regular gas is $6.34 in the Bay Area. Cost me $83 to fill a small 12 Gallon tank yesterday.
The Mortguage on my house is $3,500/month which is damn good relative to what other people are paying since I bought it 6-7 years ago, it's more than doubled in price since. So $3.5k x 12 = $42,000/yr.
Groceries?
Clothes?
Entertainment?
Car Maintenance / oil changes / tires?
Unexpected Expenses?
Vacation?
Savings?

Where is the extravagant lifestyle in that? Sure, at $200k you get the opportunity to save money, contribute to your 401k / IRA / Investment programs, but you are HARDLY living any kind of a luxurious lifestyle in the Bay Area / LA / NYC.
Bro you’re RICH on 250k, I know that because someone said it was a lot of money 20 years ago. You just need to eat beans and rice and live in an apartment shared with 5 other roommates if you want to save a few dollars. You can even afford jasmine rice with your beans. BALLING! And who wants kids anyways? Now fork over some more taxes!
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Deadlift: 405x13 (conv tap'n'go with straps)
post 1662436913 06-06-2022, 01:53 PM
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#148
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Yeah if you’re paycheck to paycheck on $250k you’re just bad with money and living above your means. It’s a **** load of money, but you still aren’t a millionaire. Once you’re in a house that’s too expensive for what you’re making it’s all downhill from there. And it’s pretty damn easy to get into a house that’s too expensive for $250k/yr in the current market.
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I rep AZ brahs
post 1662437273 06-06-2022, 02:00 PM
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#149
  1. CulturalDecay
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Originally Posted By ricflaironpcp⏩
People spend more when they make more.

Let's say 250k after taxes is 160k. A single person who is frugal and responsible could easily save 100k a year.

Most people aren't financially responsible though. A household making 250k probably has a mortgage, car payments, a few different insurance payments, servicing credit card debt. If they have kids, their kids are likely in activities. They probably do stupid things like spend $30 a day eating out/on coffee. A family like that can burn through 250k pretty easily.
Read my post - that's impossible.

This thread is actually a really good example of how average income / lower income people drastically OVER estimate the lifestyles / financial status of people making $150-250k. These are the same 'tards saying "Hurrr Durrrr the rich need to pay their fair share!" when we ALREADY not only pay our fair share, we pay drastically MORE than our fair share. People in that income range don't use governmental services at anywhere close to the rates that lower income people utilize government services.

Speaking about fair share....fully HALF of the adults in this country pay ZERO federal income taxes.

The people who skirt their taxes are the .0001% of income earners who have literal teams of accountants and tax professionals utilizing every trick in the book, registering offshore LLC's and holding companies in a dozen different countries. Read the "Panama Papers", the people who are avoiding taxes are nearly always the exact same virtue signaling blowhards saying the rich need to pay their fair share....you need to be "in the club" and have friends in the globalist regime, maybe when you hit $30Million/yr you'll be introduced to those people.

Anyway the point is, in Indiana or various other places where nobody wants to live, $250k is a solid upper middle-class family, in a high COL area $250k is middle class lifestyle for a SINGLE person.
post 1662437853 06-06-2022, 02:09 PM
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#150
  1. Destor
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Originally Posted By SteezeFactory⏩
Yeah if you’re paycheck to paycheck on $250k you’re just bad with money and living above your means. It’s a **** load of money, but you still aren’t a millionaire. Once you’re in a house that’s too expensive for what you’re making it’s all downhill from there. And it’s pretty damn easy to get into a house that’s too expensive for $250k/yr in the current market.
If you're making $250k for any stretch of time and have a smidge of financial discipline, you could become a millionaire relatively quickly

Should not take long to accumulate upwards of $1m in equity/assets if you're actually grossing $250k/year consistently. And as your equity/assets grow, it becomes easier to accumulate more and more

Takes money to make money, the first million is the hardest, etc etc
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