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Forum » Does free will exist? Discuss
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Thread: Does free will exist? Discuss

post 1664207583 07-10-2022, 10:41 PM
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#31
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the fact that none of us chose to be born proves that free will doesn't exist. If it didn't exist in that case it doesn't exist in any manner.
post 1664207733 07-10-2022, 10:45 PM
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#32
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Originally Posted By PrimarisIn⏩
Yeah, I like to think due to our evolutionary biology, our competence for reactive necesseties, the electric impulses to actually carrying out actions, does have a degree of free will. We can remember the past and make conclusions that it is not free will due to whatever varying degrees of both external and internal factors, but if that's 100% logical, then how come we do not possess the ability to predict the future?
Because aren’t solely based on you and your experiences either. There’s still the environmental component to it. Even if you’re able to pin down exactly who you are, you’ll never be prepared in knowing what environment will be thrown at you. You’d essentially have to “predict” any infinite number of scenarios that you would react to. And even if you did create a model accounting all possible reactions to all potential environmental stimuli, you still won’t know which you’ll actually encounter.
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post 1664207793 07-10-2022, 10:49 PM
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#33
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Originally Posted By SoutheastBeast1⏩
Because aren’t solely based on you and your experiences either. There’s still the environmental component to it. Even if you’re able to pin down exactly who you are, you’ll never be prepared in knowing what environment will be thrown at you. You’d essentially have to “predict” any infinite number of scenarios that you would react to. And even if you did create a model accounting all possible reactions to all potential environmental stimuli, you still won’t know which you’ll actually encounter.
True, perhaps we will have a supercomputer developed some day to input all the data.

And perhaps, the end game is truely artifical intelligence.
post 1664208473 07-10-2022, 11:32 PM
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#34
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Originally Posted By SoutheastBeast1⏩
Because aren’t solely based on you and your experiences either. There’s still the environmental component to it. Even if you’re able to pin down exactly who you are, you’ll never be prepared in knowing what environment will be thrown at you. You’d essentially have to “predict” any infinite number of scenarios that you would react to. And even if you did create a model accounting all possible reactions to all potential environmental stimuli, you still won’t know which you’ll actually encounter.
A good point. I'm holding off really investing in this thread until I see some more philosophically robust posts/answers. It's just been the presumption of determinism and the conceptually erroneous 'science sees your brain make decisions' argument (even though that doesn't even makeconceptualsense).


Not sure if you realized it, but the issue you described is one of the major reasons behind the impossibility of true AI, something that really is cognitive rather than approximating human intelligence. It's the essence of Hubert Dreyfus' prescient arguments against Artificial Intelligence which are still relevant today.
Back off, Warchild.

Seriously.
post 1664208843 07-10-2022, 11:56 PM
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#35
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^^^
Bizarre posts. 'Philosophically robust' (read: babble filled) posts are not the way to go about understanding any of this. As usual, when trying to learn about how the world actually works, philosophy is not the route to any understanding, but rather careful, scientific observation yields results. If you cut away the philosophical fluff, you will find there is little to no substance in typical posts from the above poster. But like him, I also think it's not worth the time to go into more detail.
∫∫ Mathematics crew ∑∑

♫1:2:3:4 Pythagoras crew ♫ ♫ 🧮

Nullius in verba
post 1664209023 07-11-2022, 12:06 AM
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#36
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It exists but within a narrow bandwidth. Everyone has restrictions on them whether they want to admit it or not, and a collective of chemical processes, microbiota fluctuations and hormonal spikes and dips that greatly determine what you're likely to do from moment to moment. Plus there's always the random factor of **** just happening.
A million miles away - I don't.. feel.... anything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXGZu4yxjW0
post 1664209043 07-11-2022, 12:09 AM
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#37
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Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
A good point. I'm holding off really investing in this thread until I see some more philosophically robust posts/answers. It's just been the presumption of determinism and the conceptually erroneous 'science sees your brain make decisions' argument (even though that doesn't even makeconceptualsense).


Not sure if you realized it, but the issue you described is one of the major reasons behind the impossibility of true AI, something that really is cognitive rather than approximating human intelligence. It's the essence of Hubert Dreyfus' prescient arguments against Artificial Intelligence which are still relevant today.
There's no good definition of true ai - all it has to do is sufficiently appear to seem human while making decisions of it's own accord. How it comes about is anyone's guess. It might be as simple as enough nodes connected to eachother with access to enough data combined with just the right decision making algorithm. It definitely feels like it's getting closer and closer.
A million miles away - I don't.. feel.... anything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXGZu4yxjW0
post 1664209113 07-11-2022, 12:14 AM
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#38
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Originally Posted By seanb1979⏩
There's no good definition of true ai - all it has to do is sufficiently appear to seem human while making decisions of it's own accord. How it comes about is anyone's guess. It might be as simple as enough nodes connected to eachother with access to enough data combined with just the right decision making algorithm. It definitely feels like it's getting closer and closer.
In philosophy though (and ideally, all discourse)appears to beandactuallyis makes all the difference in the world.
Back off, Warchild.

Seriously.
post 1664209353 07-11-2022, 12:29 AM
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#39
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There’s no free will. If we were to re-live our lives a billion times and every single factor stayed the exact same, then we would make the same choices every single time. We’d live the exact same life every single time.

It’s a rabbit hole to start studying this tho, wouldn’t recommend.
"The flowers bloom, then wither... The stars shine and one day become extinct. This earth, the sun, the galaxies and even the big universe, someday will be destroyed. Compared with that, the human life is only a blink, just a little time. In that short time - people are born, laugh, cry, fight, are injured, feel joy, sadness, hate someone, love someone. All in just a moment. And then, are embraced by the eternal sleep called death."
post 1664209453 07-11-2022, 12:39 AM
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#40
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Originally Posted By Ken-O⏩
There’s no free will. If we were to re-live our lives a billion times and every single factor stayed the exact same, then we would make the same choices every single time. We’d live the exact same life every single time.

It’s a rabbit hole to start studying this tho, wouldn’t recommend.
Big data interests me exactly because of stuff like this. If you could generate a data point for most things, and index that data and parse it quickly enough you could predict the future. The more data, the better the predictions.

If we get to this point then the free will argument would get very interesting.
Lurking since '05 - the days of VS gorilla/cloud/goku threads
post 1664209593 07-11-2022, 12:44 AM
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#41
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Originally Posted By Kawhilights⏩
Big data interests me exactly because of stuff like this. If you could generate a data point for most things, and index that data and parse it quickly enough you could predict the future. The more data, the better the predictions.

If we get to this point then the free will argument would get very interesting.
That’s laplace’s demon theory. Basically it says that if there’s no free will (which there isn’t) a super computer or a nearly omnipotent intelligent being could predict the future of the universe simply by knowing the starting point of each particle, because every single atom follows a determined path.

Quantum mechanics don’t support this idea but don’t negate it either. We simply don’t understand things at a quantum level yet.
"The flowers bloom, then wither... The stars shine and one day become extinct. This earth, the sun, the galaxies and even the big universe, someday will be destroyed. Compared with that, the human life is only a blink, just a little time. In that short time - people are born, laugh, cry, fight, are injured, feel joy, sadness, hate someone, love someone. All in just a moment. And then, are embraced by the eternal sleep called death."
post 1664209673 07-11-2022, 12:46 AM
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#42
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Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
In philosophy though (and ideally, all discourse)appears to beandactuallyis makes all the difference in the world.
Philosophy doesn't even have to meet the real world - that's what makes it philosophy. The sky APPEARS blue because of how your eyes and the neurons in your brain interpret the photons. So in this case, appearing to be self-aware would be for all intents and purposes the same thing if it passed all of the tests we threw at it.
A million miles away - I don't.. feel.... anything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXGZu4yxjW0
post 1664209953 07-11-2022, 01:02 AM
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#43
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Originally Posted By numberguy12⏩
^^^
Bizarre posts. 'Philosophically robust' (read: babble filled) posts are not the way to go about understanding any of this. As usual, when trying to learn about how the world actually works, philosophy is not the route to any understanding, but rather careful, scientific observation yields results. If you cut away the philosophical fluff, you will find there is little to no substance in typical posts from the above poster. But like him, I also think it's not worth the time to go into more detail.
^^ oh look Satans shill has come to do his noxious bidding yet again.
fist yourself
post 1664230323 07-11-2022, 12:06 PM
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#44
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Originally Posted By numberguy12⏩
^^^
Bizarre posts. 'Philosophically robust' (read: babble filled) posts are not the way to go about understanding any of this. As usual, when trying to learn about how the world actually works, philosophy is not the route to any understanding, but rather careful, scientific observation yields results. If you cut away the philosophical fluff, you will find there is little to no substance in typical posts from the above poster. But like him, I also think it's not worth the time to go into more detail.
Is it even possible to understand the human brain completely?

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