The gnostic gospels were written after the time of Christ and not included in the accepted cannon of the church because they departed from the oral and written teachings of the apostles. The Church preserved that the synoptic gospels were written by Matthew, Mark and Luke. The Fourth gospel John is a theological writing written after the others by John towards the end of his life. The gospels are written establishing an eyewitness account of Christ's ministry on Earth and the message of the gospel, that is why Christ's early life is not depicted. There are little 't' traditions of the early life of Christ but they are not canon, things like him going to across europe and india for example.

Gnosticism is an ancient heresy and has been refuted many times. The church fathers left many writings behind to help fill in the gaps. A lot of their writings are online and easily accessible at places likehttps://www.ccel.org/fathers.html

what religion has lineage to that time though?

Modern xtianity stems from catholics. We may have removed some books but the ones that remain are still vestigial.

Living a sin free life.

Probably slayed hebrew poon tbh

Yes Gnosticism is a heresy, St Irenaeus wrote about it in "Against Heresies", Marcionism is also a Gnostic style heresy. Arianism etc

These are ONLY Heresies because they were voted on at Councils and it rests entirely on the supposition that the Church fathers were divinely inspired. Do I like their repackaged Neo-Platonism and Logos Theology? Yes...but a relatively coherent philosophical system does not mean it's inspired by the God of creation.

And all writings were after Christ...unless you think that Matthew etc were written at the time JFL

Orthodox Christianity is the fulfillment of temple Judaism. Catholic means full or universal which the Orthodox church continues to be. In the west Catholic is synonymous with Roman Catholics who split from the rest of the Church around the 10th or 11th century when they began violating the ecumenical counsels, adding to the faith new doctrines and trying to establish the Roman Patriarch(the Pope) above all other bishops in authority.

Kicking around on a piece of ground in his hometown
Waiting for someone or something to show him the way

interdasting

lets get a timeline going for clarity, fill in the gaps if you see a disparity"

~30ad jesus dies
~150ad gospels written?
~350ad constatine becomes emperor/integrates pagan influences
~350-800ad seven ecumenical councils
~1150 schism to roman catholics

what am I missing here

It looks like theres no real point in catholicism's timeline where its not really a pagan religion.

I think a modern christian would have to seriously consider doing the research into what should be source material or not, for themselves.

As I said they were written to establish eyewitness accounts, it would have been better to say 'after the time of the apostles'. We do accept the councils as canon because of Christ's promise that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church. The purpose of the counsels though is not the establishment of new doctrines but the confirmation of what has been believed since the beginning. It has also been more than people getting into a room and voting, there have been signs and miracles that helped direct the councils of what was right and wrong. The agreement of the Bishops is also confirmed by the laity, priest and monastics, only then is it really considered ecumenical.

how is gnosticism heresy when it predates the council of nicea...

what is or isn't heresy? Can someone point at which point in the series of christianity's changes where it is holy?

~30ad jesus dies -> and is resurrected
~30ad Pentecost the church is founded
~150ad gospels written? earlier than that we have copies but the original account would have been oral and later written down.
~30ad-350ad gospel spreads despite severe persecution of faithful. Many many martyrs, miracles and witnesses of the faith.
~350ad constatine becomes emperor -> declares Christianity the religion of the empire, ends persecution of Christians, calls counsels, orders copies of bible to be compiled. He was not a bishop and did not dictate the doctrine defined at the councils. At this point after over 300 years of Christians being brutally tortured and martyred for the faith its kind of silly to think they'd happily accept pagan practices. Some practices have been taken and reoriented toward the Christ, your welcome to list examples and I'll talk to them as far as my knowledge allows.
~1150 schism to roman catholics

nice

what is so interesting to me is how dependent on the modern bible christianity is, when it doesn't seem necessary or even valid. I get council of nicea was "real christians" but theyre the same org that produced Catholicism which has always had pagan rituals...unless you're claiming that was solely the fault of Constantine.

for example...christmas/easter etc...integrated by constantine but clearly based on pagan ritual. Its true that none of that is from the works of the council of nicea...so not really that big of deal, no harm no foul

but Mary as an idol....where does that come from?

There has always been rituals, Liturgy(Mass) for example. What makes a thing pagan is that it is designed and intended for the worship or something other than the Holy Trinity. In at least a simplistic definition. Constantine didn't institute new worship. When people say there were pagan practices introduced they need to be specific as to what practices.

I editted shortly after but:

for example...christmas/easter etc...integrated by constantine but clearly based on pagan ritual. Its true that none of that is from the works of the council of nicea...so not really that big of deal, no harm no foul

but Mary as an idol....where does that come from?

Christmas is the day on the church calendar that we celebrate the birth of Christ, the logos becoming incarnate and entering into the world. The 12 days of Christmas are the 12 days between Christmas and Theophany which is when we celebrate the Baptism of Christ when he was revealed as the Savior. Easter is actually Pascha which is Greek for Passover, why we call it easter in the west is a Latin translation. This is the Celebration of the resurrection of Christ who became our passover.
Not integrated by Constantine but maybe more clearly defined. They aren't pagan though, they are directed in the worship of God and the remembrance of what he has done for us, similar to the Jews of the old covenant. They are also all events established in the gospel and celebrated on a yearly cycle.

Mary as an idol, there is a bit more nuance to it. Protestantism has become iconoclastic and denied the intercession of the saints and the Virgin Mary. Roman Catholics elevate her too much to the point where she is almost on the level of Christ among other strange doctrines. She is rightly called the Mother of God because Christ was born fully man and fully God, the Theanthropos through her. She lived a very unique life and holds a special place among the saints but as with the rest of the saint any miracles or aid from her, is through the power and grace of God not of themselves. Saint veneration should never cross into worship. A good book on her that goes into some detail without being too long is "The Orthodox Veneration of the Mother of God". It talks about the tradition surrounding her as well as the various doctrines people have attempted to corrupt the teach of her with.

Monotheistic, holy trinity, choose one.

Monotheism, veneration of saints ie demigods choose one.

God running around putting babies in virgins, sounds a lot like a Jupiter/Zeus myth to me.

The resurrection is just a retelling of Horus/Ra myth.

Christianity is just a bastardized hebrew/roman/egyptian mystery cult.

Rome was a lot like USA in that it was secular for the most part. People from all over the empire practiced whatever the hell they wanted. Christians may have been persecuted at one time or another just like everyone else. Being a religion of primarily lower class hooligans they were probably persecuted for good reasons.

he went to school

drank his milk

said his prayers

took his flintstone vitamins before bed

The Ten Commandments says to have no others idols and it's mentioned many times in the Old Testament that God is a jealous God.

Yet Catholics worship Mary and St Peter

by that logic, why believe in jesus

I believe judaism uses a messiah to change the earth into heaven, basically. The messiah himself isn't an idol, per se. He's just whoever manages to do this.

which begs the question of how can xtianity claim to be valid while claiming the religion it came from isnt....

the problem is who decides that

This is just clear lack of understanding of Christian theology, spirituality and history.
With protestant theology this is a pretty natural conclusion and a common argument against the intercession of the saints but is a relatively new point of view.

The synoptic gospels are anonymous, and none of the writers claim to be eyewitnesses. Names attached to those gospels were added later.

https://www.npr.org/2010/03/12/12457...n%20eyewitness.

the problem with the saints is they were tacked on after the fact. What do they add to the religion? if you pray to them then they're an idol, characteristically. It doesn't matter to me what a religion says semantically, its the function and action that matters. Thats what I really like about judaism, aside from the fact its hell bent on taking over the world implicitly.

I'm about 65% sure on religion discussions. I'm not asserting my points as fact.

Saints are really a witness of the Holy Spirit's work in man, they help guide the faithful and also act as an example for us. The prophets, are an example of saints, so are many of the other old testament figures. The goal of Christianity has a lot to do with the interior life of man where we are reformed into the image of God through the work of the Holy Spirit.

"If you pray to them then they're an idol" Well no, there is more nuance to it than that, in protestant theology yes, in RC and EO theology no. Really anything can be an idol to you, money, sports, women, etc.

Jesus was the first bodybuilder, but totally natty so it didn't show. He traveled around awarding people on how to lift, what macros to get daily, and the importance of hindu squats.

It's way deeper than that. Lots of Christian guilds that date back to ancient times have their own patron saint. Military branches are famous for this, and even have feast days and loyal orders dedicated to veneration of them.

For instance Saint Barbara is the Christian version of Thor.

Saint Barbara is one of the Fourteen Holy Helpers. Her association with the lightning that killed her father has caused her to be invoked against lightning and fire; by association with explosions, she is also the patron of artillery and mining.

Her feast, December 4, was introduced in Rome in the 12th century and included in the Tridentine Calendar. In 1729, that date was assigned to the celebration of Saint Peter Chrysologus, reducing that of Saint Barbara to a commemoration in his Mass. In 1969, it was removed from that calendar, because the accounts of her life and martyrdom were judged to be entirely fabulous, lacking clarity even about the place of her martyrdom. However, she is still mentioned in the Roman Martyrology, which, in addition, lists another ten martyr saints named Barbara.

Saint Barbara is venerated by Catholics who face the danger of sudden and violent death at work. She is invoked against thunder and lightning and all accidents arising from explosions of gunpowder. She became the patron saint of artillerymen, armourers, military engineers, gunsmiths, and anyone else who worked with cannon and explosives. Following the widespread adoption of gunpowder in mining in the 1600s, she was adopted as the patron of miners, tunnellers, and other underground workers. As the geology and mine engineering developed in association with mining, she became patron of these professions.

The church at HMS Excellent (also known as Whale Island) Portsmouth, Hampshire, England, the former Gunnery School of the Royal Navy, is called St. Barbara's. From 'Britain's Glorious Navy': "On the dining-table in the ward-room at Whale Island, a delightful silver statuette of Saint Barbara, the patron saint of Artillerists, smiles down on successive generations of gunnery officers who will not let her, or the Navy, down. Their job is to get straddles with full-gun salvoes of a reasonable spread; Saint Barbara herself arranges the hits."

Saint Barbara was also the Patron saint of the Royal Army Ordnance Corps of the British Army, a church being dedicated to her initial at Hilsea Barracks Portsmouth later being moved to Backdown in Surrey, when the Corps moved its training establishment there.

The Irish Army venerates her as the patron saint of the Artillery Corps where she appears on the corps insignia, half dressed, holding a harp, sitting on a field cannon.

Saint Barbara's Day, December 4, is celebrated by the British (Royal Artillery, RAF Armourers, Royal Engineers), Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm Armourers, Australian (Royal Regiment of Australian Artillery, RAAF Armourers), Canadian (Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technicians (EOD), Canadian Ammunition Technicians, Canadian Air Force Armourers, Royal Canadian Artillery, Canadian Military Field Engineers, Royal Canadian Navy Weapons Engineering Technicians), and New Zealand (RNZN Gunners Branch, RNZA, Royal New Zealand Army Ordnance Corps, RNZAF Armourers) armed forces. It is celebrated by the Norwich University Artillery Battery with a nighttime fire mission featuring multiple M116 howitzers.

Saint Barbara's Day is celebrated by United States Army and Marine Corps Field and Air Defense Artillery, many Marine Corps Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technicians. The units and sub-units celebrate the day with church parades, sports days, guest nights, cocktail parties, dinners and other activities. Several mining institutions also celebrate it, such as some branches of the Australian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy.

The West Australian Mining Club celebrate Saint Barbara's Day and use it to remember those people who have died working in the mining industry during the year. Although they do not celebrate her saint's day, she is also the patron saint of US Navy and Marine Corps Aviation Ordnancemen.


Christianity doing it's best to keep paganism alive. Or just outright stealing pagan deities.

This is a very good point
Who gave Constantine that power to determine which to discard and keep?

thats sick af srs

miscing