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Forum ยป determinism disproving hell and heaven
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Thread: determinism disproving hell and heaven

post 1673056623 12-17-2022, 10:11 PM
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determinism disproving hell and heaven

determinism, which i believe is the most likely theory to explain everything down to the creation of the universe disproves the existence of a god that would send people to hell or heaven. If determinism is correct, meaning no one has true free choice, it would not make sense for an all knowing god to punish someone for something that is out of their control. Thoughts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism
post 1673057033 12-17-2022, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted By NormalMiscVer⏩
if you re an actual determinist wahts the point of arguing generally with religious people?

They are obviously genetically predestined to believe and you not?

Why dont gaytheists just live their pathetic lives and shut their gobs? Oh then comes "MUH LOGIC (they have zero)" and MUH SUPERIOR arguments (none again) which can magically sway people to their anti life worldview.

World is hard determined due to God's plan
World is hard free due to God's appreciation for our free will

NVious just proves people are lemmings though, invites people to based country; they dont come, offers to show people how to make free/ez/legal money; theyd rather wageslave like a cuck, is a perfect human bean; they dgaf.

Is that cuz they dont have free will? No they are npc tier, but thats THEIR choice.
i never was disproving gods existence. i was disproving the existence of hell and heaven. an all knowing god would not send someone to hell because of something out of their control
post 1673057103 12-17-2022, 10:23 PM
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post 1673057183 12-17-2022, 10:26 PM
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i'm a Christian who believes free will doesn't exist. It is what it is, it's all for the glory of God. You're imputing your own morality on God.
post 1673057773 12-17-2022, 10:46 PM
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Are you sure determinism is correct?
None of the above constitutes legal advice nor should be interpreted as such.
post 1673057783 12-17-2022, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted By ninetynine8⏩
i'm a Christian who believes free will doesn't exist. It is what it is, it's all for the glory of God. You're imputing your own morality on God.
so you believe an all knowing god would purposefully punish someone who lived in the only way his existence was determined to be (which was determined by god)? i always interpreted god as a supreme knowledge that aligns with our morality. arent religious morals based on what god said? our morality = gods morality.

Also, why would a god send us to hell for being immoral as a human if our morality doesnt really apply to god? it doesnt make sense to me
post 1673057973 12-17-2022, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted By SultanofBling⏩
Are you sure determinism is correct?
I cant say for sure but I strongly believe it is. I will never say i know something for sure unless its fact. it does make the most sense to me though
post 1673058213 12-17-2022, 10:58 PM
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post 1673058333 12-17-2022, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted By beansieweansie⏩
I cant say for sure but I strongly believe it is. I will never say i know something for sure unless its fact. it does make the most sense to me though
If it makes sense to you and you believe it to be true, then it must be.

I choose to believe we have free will, though.
None of the above constitutes legal advice nor should be interpreted as such.
post 1673058503 12-17-2022, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted By beansieweansie⏩
so you believe an all knowing god would purposefully punish someone who lived in the only way his existence was determined to be (which was determined by god)? i always interpreted god as a supreme knowledge that aligns with our morality. arent religious morals based on what god said? our morality = gods morality.

Also, why would a god send us to hell for being immoral as a human if our morality doesnt really apply to god? it doesnt make sense to me
yes.

to me it's not like God individually chose everyone who would go to hell, it's more like an RNG diceroll he threw but he also picked a few that would make it and be extra special.


Gods morality is whatever he says is right by definition, and if him sending people to hell is just then that's it. He is the lawmaker




Do you think criminals should be free from punishment if determinism is proven to be true?
post 1673058663 12-17-2022, 11:13 PM
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Determinism isn't exactly true though. It's approximately true. And to me, determinism is different from simply not having a choice. Determinism certainly implies that. But there are ways to be non deterministic and still not have a choice. And I think that's the camp we are all stuck in.
post 1673059023 12-17-2022, 11:24 PM
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First, for the sake of the argument, assume God exists.

If determinism is true, then God does whatever He is determined to do (send people to heaven or hell). So He isn't acting unjustly, he's just doing what is determined. Now, if you say that God can act freely and choose who goes to heaven or hell, then it seems plausible that he can create humans with the ability to act freely - and thus make choices that send them to heaven or hell.

It doesn't seem to make sense that God can act indeterminately, but not create beings who can do the same.
post 1673059033 12-17-2022, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted By coffey06⏩
First, for the sake of the argument, assume God exists.

If determinism is true, then God does whatever He is determined to do (send people to heaven or hell). So He isn't acting unjustly, he's just doing what is determined. Now, if you say that God can act freely and choose who goes to heaven or hell, then it seems plausible that he can create humans with the ability to act freely - and thus make choices that send them to heaven or hell.

It doesn't seem to make sense that God can act indeterminately, but not create beings who can do the same.
You could create a program with specific rules and not know what the outcome will be.
post 1673059303 12-17-2022, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted By Overthrow⏩
You could create a program with specific rules and not know what the outcome will be.
I agree.
post 1673060413 12-18-2022, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted By MiscMathematician⏩
omniscience implies knowing the result
the correct use of omniscience is the capacity of knowing everything. A super advanced AI that knows everything and what will lead to everything could choose to suspend it's knowledge, could it not?

God can lower his abilities due to his omnipotence. We saw that with him taking on flesh
post 1673060563 12-18-2022, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted By MiscMathematician⏩
my mom got mad when i mentioned something similar. she's very christian. god's will causes the universe's actions, and so "he" has already determined what the ends result is; free will is a joke if we take as an assumption omniscience of a creator



omniscience implies knowing the result
Omniscience itself is contradictory. I'm pretty sure the concept of unrestricted "everything" is mathematically contradictory. It's why we don't have a set of all sets.
post 1673060703 12-18-2022, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted By MiscMathematician⏩
and god can move an immovable object or decide its just unmovable. i don't see a deity doing what you said, its like giving yourself dementia hence no longer being all-knowing as the scriptures state

and omniscience is knowing everything. not the capacity to do so.
if that's true then why don't atheists say "God can't be all powerful because he can't stop himself from knowing things"?

Instead they just pull the morality argument that he can't be all good
post 1673060753 12-18-2022, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted By MiscMathematician⏩
it's not.

If I have a set of two numbers, say {0,1}

i know everything about the set.

I'm omniscient about the set and what's contained inside of it.

I can even define operations like addition and multiplication if I'd like, and I'd know all possible outcomes of those operations (say, mod 2).

now apply that to a being who oversees the universe

the set of all sets is not a set. you're comparing human defined axioms to the creator of everything. "everything" in existence is finite
We again have to restrict what we mean by "everything". Consider that set {0,1}. To say you know everything about it could be interpreted to mean you understand all constructions that can emerge using that. You get a kind of explosion of stuff as a result. In fact, with a few other axioms and notions, you get "the entirety of mathematics", which itself might not be a well defined notion.

Merely understanding if something is in a set or not may suffice to define the set, but understanding the definition does not extend to understanding everything about it. You need to understand how it relates to other stuff. And that explodes.

You've been specific and said "omniscient about the set" in the sense of knowing what is in it. That is fair, but I meant unrestricted omniscience -- to really say you know everything. The concept of everything itself is bs imo. It requires a restriction.
post 1673060903 12-18-2022, 12:50 AM
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I need a better explanation, how does it disprove such afterlives?
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post 1673061023 12-18-2022, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted By MiscMathematician⏩
what is good is human defined. was thanos good? (if you watched the movie). I would say yes.

most humans who believe in a creator, believe our creator cares about them as individuals. that is a big assumption
that's not my point though, atheists never actually use the definition of omniscience that way otherwise they'd use it as an arugment. instead they go straight to the 'he can't be all good' argument. They only say he can't be all powerful in the context that he's not willing to stop good
post 1673061053 12-18-2022, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted By beansieweansie⏩
i never was disproving gods existence. i was disproving the existence of hell and heaven. an all knowing god would not send someone to hell because of something out of their control
It's not out of their control. People have a choice, just because God knows the outcome, does not nullify your choice,
post 1673061113 12-18-2022, 12:58 AM
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So, a priori, if we live in a Determinist world, then world views based on Non-determinism are incorrect. Alright OP got it, strong argument not srs.
post 1673061253 12-18-2022, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted By MiscMathematician⏩
it's not.

If I have a set of two numbers, say {0,1}

i know everything about the set.

I'm omniscient about the set and what's contained inside of it.

I can even define operations like addition and multiplication if I'd like, and I'd know all possible outcomes of those operations (say, mod 2).

now apply that to a being who oversees the universe

the set of all sets is not a set. you're comparing human defined axioms to the creator of everything. "everything" in existence is finite or at most countable
Our current models of space suggest neither space nor time is countable. And at least naively, Weyl's tiling argument rules out a lot of those approaches. There are ways around that, but most discrete spacetime models violate Lorentz invariance.
post 1673061403 12-18-2022, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted By MiscMathematician⏩
so athiests are trying to disprove a good god, not a god

how does that help them
the original point was me saying God can limit his omniscience through his all powerful nature, I extrapolated on this by saying that atheists never actually critique that as they never say God can't be all powerful and all knowing, they say he can't be all knowing and all powerful AND all good



you say god limiting his knowledge for a certain amount of time means he isn't all knowing.. that just doesn't make sense, if my dementia is reversed and i suddenly remember everything would you say I wasn't all knowing of my previous experience?
post 1673061423 12-18-2022, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted By MiscMathematician⏩
if operations or constructions as you call it did not exist, it's just two distinct things that exist. it can beyouruniverse and nothing ever happens besides those objects existing. if you are god, you can define how they interact, and know the results of their interaction. it's the creator that decides. if he's omniscient, he will know the results of any such construction.

Your "to say..." argument is highly dependent on human interpretation
I guess it depends how we define omniscience, but I'd also add an interesting problem with existence. Purely from the laws of physics that we know of, things like particle number aren't actually conserved on relativistic scales. Pair production automatically creates a whole zoo of crap, and it is actually required for consistency. So even the notion of a static universe with a single "thing" in it would need some truly bizarre physics to make sense, and actually might not make sense in the context of ours at all, even in principle. It may be internally inconsistent given basic assumptions about space and time to assume such a thing.
post 1673061863 12-18-2022, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted By MiscMathematician⏩
you didn't get my point. what if he is all good? maybe killing a tribe on an island of 500 by not diverting a wave, and saves 2 scientists who save 10 thousand people due to their research?

what does good even mean? do you think god's definition of good aligns with a human? some people blame god for losing on a scratch off, stubbing their toe, others blame god for losing their limb or their family, or getting cancer. what is "good"?

what is god responsible for for being labeled good?
Should read some C.S. Lewis. srs

"You can be good for the mere sake of goodness; you cannot be bad for the mere sake of badness. You can do a kind action when you are not feeling kind and when it gives you no pleasure, simply because kindness is right; but no one ever did a cruel action simply because cruelty is wrong - only because cruelty is pleasant or useful to him, In other words, badness cannot succeed even in being bad in the same way in which goodness is good. Goodness is, so to speak, itself: badness is only spoiled goodness. And there must be something good first before it can be spoiled.
C. S. Lewis
post 1673061903 12-18-2022, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted By Paul
Should read some C.S. Lewis. srs

"You can be good for the mere sake of goodness; you cannot be bad for the mere sake of badness. You can do a kind action when you are not feeling kind and when it gives you no pleasure, simply because kindness is right; but no one ever did a cruel action simply because cruelty is wrong - only because cruelty is pleasant or useful to him, In other words, badness cannot succeed even in being bad in the same way in which goodness is good. Goodness is, so to speak, itself: badness is only spoiled goodness. And there must be something good first before it can be spoiled.
C. S. Lewis
"but no one ever did a cruel action simply because cruelty is wrong"

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post 1673062123 12-18-2022, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted By ninetynine8⏩
the original point was me saying God can limit his omniscience through his all powerful nature, I extrapolated on this by saying that atheists never actually critique that as they never say God can't be all powerful and all knowing, they say he can't be all knowing and all powerful AND all good



you say god limiting his knowledge for a certain amount of time means he isn't all knowing.. that just doesn't make sense, if my dementia is reversed and i suddenly remember everything would you say I wasn't all knowing of my previous experience?
During the time period you were demented, yeah. You didn't know. After you undement yourself, the new you can know.

I'm an atheist, and I'm directly challenging or at the very least, requesting a clarification on what it means to be all knowing and all powerful. I contend these are mathematically contradictory without some restriction to interpret what "all" means. I.e., all of what?
post 1673062373 12-18-2022, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted By MiscMathematician⏩
and yet i bet he killed some insects in his life with no remorse. cruelty is defined, not a physical phenomena.
Strictly speaking, there are no such things as good and bad impulses. Think...of a piano. It has not got two kinds of notes on it, the 'right' notes and the 'wrong' ones. Every single note is right at one time and wrong at another. The Moral Law is not any one instinct or set of instincts: it is something which makes a kind of tune (the tune we call goodness or right conduct) by directing the instincts.
C. S. Lewis
post 1673062493 12-18-2022, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted By Paul
Strictly speaking, there are no such things as good and bad impulses. Think...of a piano. It has not got two kinds of notes on it, the 'right' notes and the 'wrong' ones. Every single note is right at one time and wrong at another. The Moral Law is not any one instinct or set of instincts: it is something which makes a kind of tune (the tune we call goodness or right conduct) by directing the instincts.
C. S. Lewis
Like getting vaccinated to reduce your symptomatic time and therefore the overall risk of harm to others, like child organ recipients. But your faith is more important than their lives. Because you're a dirty p3do who hates children. Groomer.
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