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I’m not buying the DOE lab leak story- what this is really about….
03-01-2023, 08:06 PM
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- gachase21
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I’m not buying the DOE lab leak story- what this is really about….
This thread has nothing to do with the origins of Covid- maybe it leaked from a lab maybe it didn’t that isn’t what does discussion is about.
The timing of this is too circumstantial, and too coincidental.
This is coming on the peak of elevating tensions with China….
I think the DOE statement is intentional and planned from the administration developed from our recent escalation with China.
I’m not sure really what the goal is - I’m sure it’s largely associated with relations with Russia- the fact that the increase tensions between them and us right now with petty things is real
We are both doing small maneuverable things and in a “back at ya” slap
And this lab leak rhetoric is one more petty “back at ya”
They want to utilize that rhetoric in a pivot to get more angst towards China in out weird semi Cold War we have now
Don’t forget - the DOE is largely unintelligent and counterintelligence agency…..
https://www.energy.gov/intelligence/...erintelligence
I damn sure don’t trust anything from Biden’s intelligence agencies or the FBI right now
If it truly was leaked from a lab, the administration is probably knew that for a long time and waiting to use this card when needed.
Or it’s a bluff play- who knows
Either way - I think the FBI and DOE are up to nefarious things here.
And now they might release “info” to Congress.
I hope this incompetent administration doesn’t get us killed.
Maybe we can shoot down more amateur ham radio balloons….
The timing of this is too circumstantial, and too coincidental.
This is coming on the peak of elevating tensions with China….
I think the DOE statement is intentional and planned from the administration developed from our recent escalation with China.
I’m not sure really what the goal is - I’m sure it’s largely associated with relations with Russia- the fact that the increase tensions between them and us right now with petty things is real
We are both doing small maneuverable things and in a “back at ya” slap
And this lab leak rhetoric is one more petty “back at ya”
They want to utilize that rhetoric in a pivot to get more angst towards China in out weird semi Cold War we have now
Don’t forget - the DOE is largely unintelligent and counterintelligence agency…..
https://www.energy.gov/intelligence/...erintelligence
I damn sure don’t trust anything from Biden’s intelligence agencies or the FBI right now
If it truly was leaked from a lab, the administration is probably knew that for a long time and waiting to use this card when needed.
Or it’s a bluff play- who knows
Either way - I think the FBI and DOE are up to nefarious things here.
And now they might release “info” to Congress.
I hope this incompetent administration doesn’t get us killed.
Maybe we can shoot down more amateur ham radio balloons….
THE US AIRFORCE MAY HAVE SHOT DOWN AN AMATEUR RADIO PICO BALLOON OVER CANADA
Since the famous takedown of a suspected Chinese spy balloon, US jets have shot down a total of three more unidentified balloon objects, now confirmed to have been 'commercial or benign'. There is speculation that at least one these three objects may have been an amateur radio 'pico' balloon.
One part of the amateur radio hobby is launching high altitude balloons with various radio and other payloads. Larger amateur radio balloons launched in the USA require FAA clearance, need a radar reflector attached, and usually continually transmit APRS telemetry before naturally popping and falling back to earth after a few hours, just like a weather balloon.
However there is also the simpler 'pico' ballooning hobby, which involves the use of mylar helium party balloons to launch small solar powered payloads that are only a few grams in weight. They typically transmit low power WSPR at HF frequencies and can only transmit whenever there is sufficient solar power available. Amateur radio or SDR hobbyist stations around the world can pick up these transmissions, and report them on amateur.sondehub.org and/or wsprnet.org. Well built balloons can totally circumnavigate the globe several times over several months before degrading.
While termed 'pico', the party balloons used can still be roughly a meter in diameter on the ground, with some latex balloons potentially expanding further at high altitudes due to the low atmospheric pressure. These balloons can be legally launched from almost anywhere in the world. In particular in the USA there is no FAA clearance required to launch them due to their payload being much less than the limit of 4 lbs (1.8kg).
There is speculation that at least one of the objects shot down over Canada, Yukon by a US Air Force jet may have been amateur radio pico balloon K9YO-15 which was launched from Illinois on October 10 2022. It was on it's seventh circumnavigation of the globe after being aloft for 123 days.
The launch blog post indicates that the K9YO-15 balloon was flying a silver mylar 32" sphere SAG balloon which appears to be this one from balloons.online. Unlike latex or rubber weather balloons which inflate and stretch as they rise into lower atmospheric pressures, these mylar balloons can't stretch, so their fully inflated ground size will be the same as their size at high altitudes, meaning the pico balloon won't get much bigger than 32". The payload was a GPS module, Arduino, SI5351 used as a WSPR and APRS transmitter and a solar panel, all together weighing 16.4 grams. A pentagon memo notes that the object shot down over Canada was a "small metallic balloon with a tethered payload" which fits the description of the pico balloon exactly.
The K9YO-15 balloon ceased all WSPR telemetry transmissions while flying just below Alaska since Feb 11 00:18 UTC (just before sunset in Alaska when the solar panels would stop working).
By using NOAA wind models and the last known location by Alaska, K9YO-15 was projected to have been over Yukon when the US Air Force shot down the unknown balloon object at Feb 11 20:41 UTC (3:41 PM EST / 1:41 PM Yukon time according to Canadian Defense Minister Anand). Reports put the altitude of the shot down object at approximately 40,000ft (~12000 meters), which matches the projected ~11500 meters of K9YO-15. Based on the previous days transmission times, it is suspected that if it were operational, the balloon would have begun transmitting again sometime later in the Yukon afternoon when the sun was stronger, but no transmissions have been seen.
Over on Twitter @ikluft (KO6YQ) has been reporting on this speculation, and has been keeping an eye on K9YO-15, awaiting telemetry transmission. We recommend following his account for further updates.
Cont….
https://www.rtl-sdr.com/the-us-airfo...n-over-canada/Since the famous takedown of a suspected Chinese spy balloon, US jets have shot down a total of three more unidentified balloon objects, now confirmed to have been 'commercial or benign'. There is speculation that at least one these three objects may have been an amateur radio 'pico' balloon.
One part of the amateur radio hobby is launching high altitude balloons with various radio and other payloads. Larger amateur radio balloons launched in the USA require FAA clearance, need a radar reflector attached, and usually continually transmit APRS telemetry before naturally popping and falling back to earth after a few hours, just like a weather balloon.
However there is also the simpler 'pico' ballooning hobby, which involves the use of mylar helium party balloons to launch small solar powered payloads that are only a few grams in weight. They typically transmit low power WSPR at HF frequencies and can only transmit whenever there is sufficient solar power available. Amateur radio or SDR hobbyist stations around the world can pick up these transmissions, and report them on amateur.sondehub.org and/or wsprnet.org. Well built balloons can totally circumnavigate the globe several times over several months before degrading.
While termed 'pico', the party balloons used can still be roughly a meter in diameter on the ground, with some latex balloons potentially expanding further at high altitudes due to the low atmospheric pressure. These balloons can be legally launched from almost anywhere in the world. In particular in the USA there is no FAA clearance required to launch them due to their payload being much less than the limit of 4 lbs (1.8kg).
There is speculation that at least one of the objects shot down over Canada, Yukon by a US Air Force jet may have been amateur radio pico balloon K9YO-15 which was launched from Illinois on October 10 2022. It was on it's seventh circumnavigation of the globe after being aloft for 123 days.
The launch blog post indicates that the K9YO-15 balloon was flying a silver mylar 32" sphere SAG balloon which appears to be this one from balloons.online. Unlike latex or rubber weather balloons which inflate and stretch as they rise into lower atmospheric pressures, these mylar balloons can't stretch, so their fully inflated ground size will be the same as their size at high altitudes, meaning the pico balloon won't get much bigger than 32". The payload was a GPS module, Arduino, SI5351 used as a WSPR and APRS transmitter and a solar panel, all together weighing 16.4 grams. A pentagon memo notes that the object shot down over Canada was a "small metallic balloon with a tethered payload" which fits the description of the pico balloon exactly.
The K9YO-15 balloon ceased all WSPR telemetry transmissions while flying just below Alaska since Feb 11 00:18 UTC (just before sunset in Alaska when the solar panels would stop working).
By using NOAA wind models and the last known location by Alaska, K9YO-15 was projected to have been over Yukon when the US Air Force shot down the unknown balloon object at Feb 11 20:41 UTC (3:41 PM EST / 1:41 PM Yukon time according to Canadian Defense Minister Anand). Reports put the altitude of the shot down object at approximately 40,000ft (~12000 meters), which matches the projected ~11500 meters of K9YO-15. Based on the previous days transmission times, it is suspected that if it were operational, the balloon would have begun transmitting again sometime later in the Yukon afternoon when the sun was stronger, but no transmissions have been seen.
Over on Twitter @ikluft (KO6YQ) has been reporting on this speculation, and has been keeping an eye on K9YO-15, awaiting telemetry transmission. We recommend following his account for further updates.
Cont….
03-01-2023, 08:10 PM
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#2
- Paul Kreul
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exactly OP
First China Baloons, then China made made Covid in the lab, now China is backing weapon supply to Russia..all to draw us into a possible WW3. Not saying any of this is a definitive true or false, but you look at all the talking heads pushing the same narrative, you know that it is most likely bullchit
First China Baloons, then China made made Covid in the lab, now China is backing weapon supply to Russia..all to draw us into a possible WW3. Not saying any of this is a definitive true or false, but you look at all the talking heads pushing the same narrative, you know that it is most likely bullchit
03-01-2023, 08:18 PM
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#3
- ~Hades~
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The current administration wants a war with Russia and China. Iran will get involved as well.
What kind of foreign policy is that?
Remember when trump started no wars?
What kind of foreign policy is that?
Remember when trump started no wars?
Royal Crew
Chiefs Crew
Festivus Cew
03-01-2023, 08:19 PM
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#4
- gachase21
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Originally Posted By Paul
In this very forum you can see people arguing and discussing the lab leak stories exactly the way the administration wants them to.exactly OP
First China Baloons, then China made made Covid in the lab, now China is backing weapon supply to Russia..all to draw us into a possible WW3. Not saying any of this is a definitive true or false, but you look at all the talking heads pushing the same narrative, you know that it is most likely bullchit
First China Baloons, then China made made Covid in the lab, now China is backing weapon supply to Russia..all to draw us into a possible WW3. Not saying any of this is a definitive true or false, but you look at all the talking heads pushing the same narrative, you know that it is most likely bullchit
Giant ass red herring.
Suddenly we found “new Intel” - and on this very week we decide to announce it…
I’m not falling for that bullchit
03-01-2023, 08:31 PM
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#5
- gachase21
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Exclusive: US seeks allies' backing for possible China sanctions over Ukraine war
WASHINGTON, March 1 (Reuters) - The United States is sounding out close allies about the possibility of imposing new sanctions on China if Beijing provides military support to Russia for its war in Ukraine, according to four U.S. officials and other sources.
The consultations, which are still at a preliminary stage, are intended to drum up support from a range of countries, especially those in the wealthy Group of 7 (G7), to coordinate support for any possible restrictions.
It was not clear what specific sanctions Washington will propose. The conversations have not been previously disclosed.
The U.S. Treasury Department, a lead agency on the imposition of sanctions, declined to comment.
Washington and its allies have said in recent weeks that China was considering providing weapons to Russia, which Beijing denies. Aides to U.S. President Joe Biden have not publicly provided evidence.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-see...es-2023-03-01/WASHINGTON, March 1 (Reuters) - The United States is sounding out close allies about the possibility of imposing new sanctions on China if Beijing provides military support to Russia for its war in Ukraine, according to four U.S. officials and other sources.
The consultations, which are still at a preliminary stage, are intended to drum up support from a range of countries, especially those in the wealthy Group of 7 (G7), to coordinate support for any possible restrictions.
It was not clear what specific sanctions Washington will propose. The conversations have not been previously disclosed.
The U.S. Treasury Department, a lead agency on the imposition of sanctions, declined to comment.
Washington and its allies have said in recent weeks that China was considering providing weapons to Russia, which Beijing denies. Aides to U.S. President Joe Biden have not publicly provided evidence.
These mf’ers have to go. They have lost their damn minds.
03-01-2023, 08:33 PM
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#6
Originally Posted By gachase21⏩
How did you determine we're at the peak of elevating tensions?The timing of this is too circumstantial, and too coincidental.
This is coming on the peak of elevating tensions with China….
This is coming on the peak of elevating tensions with China….
In the past 20 years there has been spy plane collisions, disputed territory, trade wars, currency manipulation, Houston consulate closure, etc.
Alternatively, how does this fit with the Xiden narrative?
03-01-2023, 08:36 PM
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#7
- Pterodactyl314
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Correct, that lab leak is another misdirection. It fits well with the “Chinese spy balloon” narrative, keeps people afraid and primed for biological warfare with more lockdowns, and keeps attention away from the real bioweapon the clot shots. I just can’t figure out the end game, is China going to be the last man standing after all of this?
See you tomorrow
03-01-2023, 08:40 PM
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#8
- gachase21
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Originally Posted By Seatard⏩
All above is true - but the Ukraine episode is changed everything-How did you determine we're at the peak of elevating tensions?
In the past 20 years there has been spy plane collisions, disputed territory, trade wars, currency manipulation, Houston consulate closure, etc.
Alternatively, how does this fit with the Xiden narrative?
In the past 20 years there has been spy plane collisions, disputed territory, trade wars, currency manipulation, Houston consulate closure, etc.
Alternatively, how does this fit with the Xiden narrative?
Biden obviously prioritizes $kraine over China relations.
Or common sense
If you can’t see the rapid acceleration of tensions, in the last nine weeks, you are blind.
03-01-2023, 08:43 PM
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#9
ok, I can get on board exploring that theory, but the question I have is, for what reason? Is it to deflect from Dems? Deflect from Fauci and the NIH, who funded the research to make the COVID-19 virus? Is all of the evidence fabricated? Or is this just a scapegoat?
At this point, we are certainly smart to question EVERYTHING coming to us from US intel and government in general. What evidence do you believe is real?
At this point, we are certainly smart to question EVERYTHING coming to us from US intel and government in general. What evidence do you believe is real?
One party system; Most Republicans are Democrats, but no Democrats are Republicans.
Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
"To Call something fair or unfair is a subjective value judgment and not liable to any verification" Ludwig Von Mises
03-01-2023, 08:49 PM
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#10
Originally Posted By gachase21⏩
Never been a fan of this style of argument.Or common sense
If you can’t see the rapid acceleration of tensions, in the last nine weeks, you are blind.
If you can’t see the rapid acceleration of tensions, in the last nine weeks, you are blind.
Every few months for decades now there has been some new fear mongering about China. A minute ago we were going to war over Taiwan, now Ukraine changes everything and if you don't see it you're a dummy.
03-01-2023, 08:51 PM
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#11
I get strong “wage the dog” vibes from the Biden regime, that’s for sure.
One party system; Most Republicans are Democrats, but no Democrats are Republicans.
Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
"To Call something fair or unfair is a subjective value judgment and not liable to any verification" Ludwig Von Mises
03-01-2023, 08:51 PM
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#12
03-01-2023, 08:52 PM
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#13
- rectifryer
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yes its ridiculous because it completely glosses over the fact that we funded the research
Boycott foodservice industry crew
03-01-2023, 08:52 PM
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#14
- gachase21
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Originally Posted By Kraken⏩
First off - it doesn’t really matter of the lab leak story is actually true or not.ok, I can get on board exploring that theory, but the question I have is, for what reason? Is it to deflect from Dems? Deflect from Fauci and the NIH, who funded the research to make the COVID-19 virus? Is all of the evidence fabricated? Or is this just a scapegoat?
At this point, we are certainly smart to question EVERYTHING coming to us from US intel and government in general. What evidence do you believe is real?
At this point, we are certainly smart to question EVERYTHING coming to us from US intel and government in general. What evidence do you believe is real?
This is probably to get the GOP in Congress to to feel somewhat vindicated and then join the Dems agreeing in the sanction possibilities from post #5 ITT
And other bipartisan congressional US Ukraine, China, Russia, BS.
As well as other nations mentioned in the article
I’m sure Congress will soon be presented material that the lab leak is somewhat likely true….
Just another one of many rally the troops (nations) cry
03-01-2023, 08:54 PM
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#15
- gachase21
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Originally Posted By Seatard⏩
If you’ve been watching the news for at least the last two weeks, you can realize how this is a bit different.Never been a fan of this style of argument.
Every few months for decades now there has been some new fear mongering about China. A minute ago we were going to war over Taiwan, now Ukraine changes everything and if you don't see it you're a dummy.
Every few months for decades now there has been some new fear mongering about China. A minute ago we were going to war over Taiwan, now Ukraine changes everything and if you don't see it you're a dummy.
Heck, even on my financial stations, it cluttered up the radio for about two hours the last two mornings.
A topic never discussed there
03-01-2023, 08:54 PM
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#16
- XterraRob
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Whatever gets us going and prepared for China, I'm fine with.
People don't even know how much the international order has changed, because the news doesn't talk about the world like that. Too busy keeping you distracted so you can't see what's going on right in front of you.
China is an enormous threat right now, and the only people pretending its not either have no idea what they're talking about, or they're scared.
People don't even know how much the international order has changed, because the news doesn't talk about the world like that. Too busy keeping you distracted so you can't see what's going on right in front of you.
China is an enormous threat right now, and the only people pretending its not either have no idea what they're talking about, or they're scared.
The Era of Great Noticing has begun.
Modern liberalism is morally bankrupt and demonic.
Right wing politics is the new counter-culture.
Wincel: "I'm saying even the govt of China, while brutal at times, is NOT our enemy. Period."
Has Beowulf10 ever experienced true love? Where did he go?
Education is humanity's key to salvation.
The 2nd Cold War has begun.
03-01-2023, 08:55 PM
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#17
- gwg77
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Originally Posted By gachase21⏩
A lot of people have been saying it's misdirection on social media, and I tend to agree with you and them. It is a little suspicious that suddenly they have some new information, supposedly about the Chinese CDC.In this very forum you can see people arguing and discussing the lab leak stories exactly the way the administration wants them to.
Giant ass red herring.
Suddenly we found “new Intel” - and on this very week we decide to announce it…
I’m not falling for that bullchit
Giant ass red herring.
Suddenly we found “new Intel” - and on this very week we decide to announce it…
I’m not falling for that bullchit
However, arguing about the origins of Covid is still dope af cuz.
03-01-2023, 08:57 PM
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#18
- gachase21
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[QUOTE=gwg77 post_id=1678172603]A lot of people have been saying it's misdirection on social media, and I tend to agree with you and them. It is a little suspicious that suddenly they have some new information, supposedly about the Chinese CDC.
However, arguing about the origins of Covid is still dope af cuz.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/7chmoOI.jpgimg][/QUOTE]The arguing can be interesting, unfortunately I won’t be able to believe the information we are probably about to get[img]//assets.bodybuilding.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif[/img]
However, arguing about the origins of Covid is still dope af cuz.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/7chmoOI.jpgimg][/QUOTE]The arguing can be interesting, unfortunately I won’t be able to believe the information we are probably about to get[img]//assets.bodybuilding.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif[/img]
03-01-2023, 09:00 PM
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#19
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Originally Posted By XterraRob⏩
If we need to stick it to China fine- if we do it in the fashion that can actually strengthen their international power then not so much fine- tying it into the Russia/Ukraine mess is a potential for a trilateral trainwreck.Whatever gets us going and prepared for China, I'm fine with.
People don't even know how much the international order has changed, because the news doesn't talk about the world like that. Too busy keeping you distracted so you can't see what's going on right in front of you.
China is an enormous threat right now, and the only people pretending its not either have no idea what they're talking about, or they're scared.
People don't even know how much the international order has changed, because the news doesn't talk about the world like that. Too busy keeping you distracted so you can't see what's going on right in front of you.
China is an enormous threat right now, and the only people pretending its not either have no idea what they're talking about, or they're scared.
03-01-2023, 09:02 PM
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#20
I just came across a bunch of articles over the last few days that the Biden regime has been funding far left propaganda outlets in several western countries, and Hungary has been the most recent discovery. They were also funding Soros organizations for a year or so.
Biden regime IS THE FOURTH REICH! I’m not even exaggerating. This is serious chit the US citizens are in right now.
Biden regime IS THE FOURTH REICH! I’m not even exaggerating. This is serious chit the US citizens are in right now.
One party system; Most Republicans are Democrats, but no Democrats are Republicans.
Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
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03-01-2023, 09:08 PM
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#21
- rectifryer
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The fact remains we absolutely do no need war with china. We could simply start making everything here
but that would make a lot of rich people poor and a lot of poor people well off so we can't have that
war is simply to preserve the status of the rich billionaire oligarchs; it does nothing for us.
but that would make a lot of rich people poor and a lot of poor people well off so we can't have that
war is simply to preserve the status of the rich billionaire oligarchs; it does nothing for us.
Boycott foodservice industry crew
03-01-2023, 09:12 PM
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#22
- XterraRob
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Originally Posted By gachase21⏩
One of these days, an event will happen that will be the straw that breaks the camel's back of US China relations. And Americans will realize how hard life can really be again.If we need to stick it to China fine- if we do it in the fashion that can actually strengthen their international power then not so much fine- tying it into the Russia/Ukraine mess is a potential for a trilateral trainwreck.
The US has been preparing privately, but not enough publicly.
The Era of Great Noticing has begun.
Modern liberalism is morally bankrupt and demonic.
Right wing politics is the new counter-culture.
Wincel: "I'm saying even the govt of China, while brutal at times, is NOT our enemy. Period."
Has Beowulf10 ever experienced true love? Where did he go?
Education is humanity's key to salvation.
The 2nd Cold War has begun.
03-01-2023, 09:16 PM
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#23
- Paul Kreul
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It is all a push to drive people into the WEF's plan for the general public, and enticing a war with China just moves the steps just that much closer
https://iceni.substack.com/p/private...rships-for-mad
https://iceni.substack.com/p/private...rships-for-mad
03-01-2023, 09:17 PM
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#24
03-01-2023, 09:23 PM
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#25
- GreatOldOne
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Originally Posted By gachase21⏩
I'm wondering if they've intercepted communications which are incriminating in some way, regarding China admiting being responsible.The arguing can be interesting, unfortunately I won’t be able to believe the information we are probably about to get
I don't think it would be a 'new study'.
03-01-2023, 09:27 PM
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#26
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Originally Posted By GreatOldOne⏩
I replied to you in the other thread. It's something about the Chinese CDC, according to CNN.I'm wondering if they've intercepted communications which are incriminating in some way, regarding China admiting being responsible.
I don't think it would be a 'new study'.
I don't think it would be a 'new study'.
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showt...post1678153753
03-01-2023, 09:31 PM
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#27
Originally Posted By rectifryer⏩
The benefit to having things made in China is that it’s cheaper, actually. I’m not necessarily advocating for China, but the reality is, Americans won’t work for a low enough wage for unskilled labor, and China will. It goes back to min wage laws. The value of those unskilled positions is lower than min wage. Did you never hear how min wage laws causes unemployment? The unemployment manifests in different ways, one is to export the jobs, the other is to employ less people. There is a threshold in which a position is so low in skill, you can’t justify paying even min wage to a person doing the job for two or three people.The fact remains we absolutely do no need war with china. We could simply start making everything here
but that would make a lot of rich people poor and a lot of poor people well off so we can't have that
war is simply to preserve the status of the rich billionaire oligarchs; it does nothing for us.
but that would make a lot of rich people poor and a lot of poor people well off so we can't have that
war is simply to preserve the status of the rich billionaire oligarchs; it does nothing for us.
This is why all of our tech support got exported to India. Ever notice how uneducated those individuals are? Yeah, low level tech support isn’t worth $10/hour. now imagine hiring less people to take calls in a call center that receives that many calls a day. It is not humanly possible, so the jobs went to India.
One party system; Most Republicans are Democrats, but no Democrats are Republicans.
Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
"To Call something fair or unfair is a subjective value judgment and not liable to any verification" Ludwig Von Mises
03-01-2023, 09:49 PM
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#28
03-01-2023, 10:26 PM
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#29
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Originally Posted By gachase21⏩
Should’ve kept Trump in power…https://www.reuters.com/world/us-see...es-2023-03-01/
These mf’ers have to go. They have lost their damn minds.
These mf’ers have to go. They have lost their damn minds.
“The life of man is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.” – Thomas Hobbes, 1588 – 1679
*Never Respond To RSM3 Threads crew*
03-01-2023, 10:34 PM
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#30
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Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
Useful idiot.Almost like it was the perfect time for a piece of sinophobic propaganda, hey, OP?
“The life of man is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.” – Thomas Hobbes, 1588 – 1679
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