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Forum » Can someone aware me on marxism?
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Thread: Can someone aware me on marxism?

post 1680381883 04-07-2023, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
You didn't make criticisms, you suggested reading Mises' criticisms.

Many of Mises criticisms were countered by Marx himself.
Well that's fairly amazing. Marx died in 1883 yet responded to a book published in 1957.
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post 1680381933 04-07-2023, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
Well that's fairly amazing. Marx died in 1883 yet responded to a book published in 1957.
Not responded, but countered in Kapital.
post 1680382003 04-07-2023, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
Not responded, but countered in Kapital.
Cringe
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post 1680384603 04-07-2023, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
While the "Austrians" consider their ideology as the single most important thing ever, very few others agree.
Can you post some sources for this? Here I thought Austrians thought that Capitalism was the single most important thing ever.

As for their contributions, they were yuge.
One party system; Most Republicans are Democrats, but no Democrats are Republicans.
Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
"To Call something fair or unfair is a subjective value judgment and not liable to any verification" Ludwig Von Mises
post 1680385553 04-07-2023, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted By Kraken⏩
Can you post some sources for this? Here I thought Austrians thought that Capitalism was the single most important thing ever.

As for their contributions, they were yuge.


post 1680392813 04-08-2023, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted By Kraken⏩
Can you post some sources for this? Here I thought Austrians thought that Capitalism was the single most important thing ever.

As for their contributions, they were yuge.
Austrian economics is a joke lmao. One of the core principles is their rejection of empirical evidence in favour of voodoo pseudopsychology called "praxeology" because they're too retarded to do anything difficult like math. Even Marx didn't reject math and he started writing a century before the famous Austrians did.

Hayek made a small handful of contributions to our mainstream understanding of the subject but otherwise as a discipline they contributed almost nothing.
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post 1680394093 04-08-2023, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted By isingmodel⏩
Austrian economics is a joke lmao. One of the core principles is their rejection of empirical evidence in favour of voodoo pseudopsychology called "praxeology" because they're too retarded to do anything difficult like math. Even Marx didn't reject math and he started writing a century before the famous Austrians did.

Hayek made a small handful of contributions to our mainstream understanding of the subject but otherwise as a discipline they contributed almost nothing.
Best way to tell is just ask if someone's taken real analysis. 99% of the online republican "economics" experts have not. lol
post 1680399743 04-08-2023, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted By isingmodel⏩
Austrian economics is a joke lmao. One of the core principles is their rejection of empirical evidence in favour of voodoo pseudopsychology called "praxeology" because they're too retarded to do anything difficult like math. Even Marx didn't reject math and he started writing a century before the famous Austrians did.

Hayek made a small handful of contributions to our mainstream understanding of the subject but otherwise as a discipline they contributed almost nothing.
You think the irs operates the same way restaurants do
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post 1680400283 04-08-2023, 08:09 AM
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[QUOTE=J.L.C. post_id=1680385553][Img]https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T1/images/I/31aLpJqR20L._SX320_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg[/ig]

[Img]https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1316127373i/10303367.jpg[/ig][/QUOTE]These books are criticisms of keynesian ecomomics
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post 1680400633 04-08-2023, 08:20 AM
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If someone living under a rock with no idea asked me what Marxism was I'd sum it up by the idea that everyone is paid the same reguardless of waht they do to contribute. They also belive that all work is equal and the only measurement is time.
post 1680400723 04-08-2023, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
These books are criticisms of keynesian ecomomics
They also address Austrians
post 1680400793 04-08-2023, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted By Jasonw1178⏩
If someone living under a rock with no idea asked me what Marxism was I'd sum it up by the idea that everyone is paid the same reguardless of waht they do to contribute. They also belive that all work is equal and the only measurement is time.
These are the common misunderstandings and misrepresentations presented in this thread.
post 1680401033 04-08-2023, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
These are the common misunderstandings and misrepresentations presented in this thread.
Some folks call hills mountains. Some folks call mountains hills. Either way, they're large piles of dirt and rock. If it starts with control, has it in the middle, or ends with control, it's all the same thing. Spare us the semantics. Socialism, communism, Marxism are the same thing.
post 1680401383 04-08-2023, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted By hendrixfreak70⏩
Some folks call hills mountains. Some folks call mountains hills. Either way, they're large piles of dirt and rock. If it starts with control, has it in the middle, or ends with control, it's all the same thing. Spare us the semantics. Socialism, communism, Marxism are the same thing.
Except that's incorrect. Marxism is anti-statist and anti-authoritarian control.

I do find it interesting that those who proclaim to value individual freedom also seem to support authoritarian rule and reject anything that threatens the power of the state.
post 1680401663 04-08-2023, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
Except that's incorrect. Marxism is anti-statist and anti-authoritarian control.

I do find it interesting that those who proclaim to value individual freedom also seem to support authoritarian rule and reject anything that threatens the power of the state.


May want to let the fine folks over at Oxford Handbook know.

"According to The Oxford Handbook of Karl Marx, "Marx used many terms to refer to a post-capitalist society—positive humanism, socialism, Communism, realm of free individuality, free association of producers, etc. He used these terms completely interchangeably."
post 1680401903 04-08-2023, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted By hendrixfreak70⏩
May want to let the fine folks over at Oxford Handbook know.

"According to The Oxford Handbook of Karl Marx, "Marx used many terms to refer to a post-capitalist society—positive humanism, socialism, Communism, realm of free individuality, free association of producers, etc. He used these terms completely interchangeably."
You're making my point.

"Free individuality"
post 1680402013 04-08-2023, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
You're making my point.

"Free individuality"
Man, I dunno. How can you call anything that is about control "free?" Ded srs. Is this like Orwellian double-speak or something?
post 1680402133 04-08-2023, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted By hendrixfreak70⏩
Man, I dunno. How can you call anything that is about control "free?" Ded srs. Is this like Orwellian double-speak or something?
Marxism isn't about control.

Orwell was a socialist as well.
post 1680402173 04-08-2023, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted By hendrixfreak70⏩


May want to let the fine folks over at Oxford Handbook know.

"According to The Oxford Handbook of Karl Marx, "Marx used many terms to refer to a post-capitalist society—positive humanism, socialism, Communism, realm of free individuality, free association of producers, etc. He used these terms completely interchangeably."
I think this letter written by Engels is instructive:
Originally Posted By Engels
Bakunin has a peculiar theory of his own...the chief point of which is in the first place that he does not regard capital, and therefore the class contradiction between capitalists and wage earners which has arisen through social development, as the main evil to be abolished--instead, he regards the state as the main evil.

While the great mass of the Social Democratic workers hold our view that state power is nothing more than the organization with which the ruling classes, landlords and capitalists have provided themselves in order to protect their social prerogatives, Bakunin maintains that it is the state which has created capital, that the capitalist has his capital only by favor of the state.

As, therefore, the state is the chief evil, it is above all the state which must be done away with and then capitalism will go to hell of itself. We, on the contrary say: do away with capital, the appropriation of the whole means of production in the hands of the few, and the state will fall away of itself.
Marxists are anti state, but they view the state as a symptom of the core problem of class, and once a classless society is achieved the state will disappear. So its just a couple minor ideological hops to decide that creating an all powerful state is an anti-state endeavor as long as its goal is to end class.

Its important to note that the concept of 'class' is not an objective one. Its a social classification only and Marx himself was unable to truly define it.

You see a lot of that sort of thing with marxists. They use terms that dont really have any basis in reality but act as if they are as foundational as natural law, like physics, and as such any means needed to implement them are justified. The result being the mass killings they are so famous for
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post 1680402423 04-08-2023, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
I think this letter written by Engels is instructive:



Marxists are anti state, but they view the state as a symptom of the core problem of class, and once a classless society is achieved the state will disappear. So its just a couple minor ideological hops to decide that creating an all powerful state is an anti-state endeavor as long as its goal is to end class.

Its important to note that the concept of 'class' is not an objective one. Its a social classification only and Marx himself was unable to truly define it.

You see a lot of that sort of things with marxists. They use terms that dont really have any basis in reality but act as if they are as foundational as natural law, like physics, and as such any means needed to implement them are justified. The result being the mass killings they are so famous for
This is a common approach by conservatives.

Dictatorial authoritarian regimes called themselves Marxists, so conservatives take those instantiations as representative of the philosophy, without reviewing the actual philosophy.

IMO, social conservatism is the most authoritarian modern ideology where everyone is free to be like me or be punished.
post 1680402983 04-08-2023, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
These are the common misunderstandings and misrepresentations presented in this thread.
The most common misunderstaning of marxists is how human nature works and probably the misrepresentation is the idea that it hasn't been tried when it has, and every time it turns into an authoritarian chithole. How can you have a system that keeps everyone equal and makes sure nobody is out of line without being oppressively authoritarian? Unless "everyone is honest" which we know they aren't. By that token, if you can't make what you want the honest way you'll make it anoher way.
post 1680403243 04-08-2023, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
This is a common approach by conservatives.

Dictatorial authoritarian regimes called themselves Marxists, so conservatives take those instantiations as representative of the philosophy, without reviewing the actual philosophy.

IMO, social conservatism is the most authoritarian modern ideology where everyone is free to be like me or be punished.
Those regimes are almost always installed by marxist revolutionaries. I've discussed this with too many communists to buy that line sir. The size and power of that state just is not an important concern to them. As long as they are convinced that the state's goals are measures that lead to the end of class in society it is acceptable regardless of its size and scope. And that sentiment has gone terribly wrong often enough by now that it should be indesputable that the whithering of the state should take precedence over ending class
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post 1680403433 04-08-2023, 09:31 AM
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There is only one example i know of where marxists overthrew a government and created a stareless classless system without using a powerful central government as an intermediary. Spanish catalonia

Anyone unfamiliar should look it up. It was a real shyt show.
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post 1680403713 04-08-2023, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted By Jasonw1178⏩
The most common misunderstaning of marxists is how human nature works and probably the misrepresentation is the idea that it hasn't been tried when it has, and every time it turns into an authoritarian chithole. How can you have a system that keeps everyone equal and makes sure nobody is out of line without being oppressively authoritarian? Unless "everyone is honest" which we know they aren't. By that token, if you can't make what you want the honest way you'll make it anoher way.
It has happened on smaller scales.

However, power hungry authoritarians operating under a guise of being "for the people" has more historical examples.
post 1680403783 04-08-2023, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
Those regimes are almost always installed by marxist revolutionaries. I've discussed this with too many communists to buy that line sir. The size and power of that state just is not an important concern to them. As long as they are convinced that the state's goals are measures that lead to the end of class in society it is acceptable regardless of its size and scope. And that sentiment has gone terribly wrong often enough by now that it should be indesputable that the whithering of the state should take precedence over ending class
You said above that Marxists, like socialists and anarchists, are anti-state.

With that, I agree.
post 1680404423 04-08-2023, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
You think the irs operates the same way restaurants do
I get that math is hard especially for baldcel tradies but that doesn't mean you can turn to voodoo to try and explain the world
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post 1680407583 04-08-2023, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
You said above that Marxists, like socialists and anarchists, are anti-state.

With that, I agree.
Yes, anti state while willing to expand and use the state
Originally Posted By isingmodel⏩
I get that math is hard especially for baldcel tradies but that doesn't mean you can turn to voodoo to try and explain the world
Communist math: 1+1=the irs is a restaurant
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post 1680408053 04-08-2023, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
Yes, anti state while willing to expand and use the state
I don't think so. All three have a stateless society as a tenet.
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
It has happened on smaller scales.

However, power hungry authoritarians operating under a guise of being "for the people" has more historical examples.
Yes very small close-knit groups such as the Amish have a system that you could relate to a marxist type ideal in many ways. No way in hell could that work or a nation like the USA.

It seems every time someone talked about being "for the people' in a marxist way was a brutal authoritarian. Even if it wasn't them, it was those around them. A Marxist system seems to be ideal for those who want to take control. Outside of those people, there are a lot of people who have nothing to offer that people are willing to pay for. In order to make it in a capitalist society, you need to have something that others are willing to pay for, either a good or service. There are some people who are talented, smart, and well educated and despite all of this, nobody is willing to pay them for it. Artists and intelectuals are prime examples. They would love a system that would reward them for their contributions.

Not saying that capitalism is fair or our system is perfect by any means. Look at your Congress. Senators and Congress members getting rich AF and they don't do anything but hold a position. This is in other places as well. If we went Marxist that wouldn't change. Communism is a system the elites push onto the masses as a way to control them.
post 1680408653 04-08-2023, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted By Jasonw1178⏩
Yes very small close-knit groups such as the Amish have a system that you could relate to a marxist type ideal in many ways. No way in hell could that work or a nation like the USA.

It seems every time someone talked about being "for the people' in a marxist way was a brutal authoritarian. Even if it wasn't them, it was those around them. A Marxist system seems to be ideal for those who want to take control. Outside of those people, there are a lot of people who have nothing to offer that people are willing to pay for. In order to make it in a capitalist society, you need to have something that others are willing to pay for, either a good or service. There are some people who are talented, smart, and well educated and despite all of this, nobody is willing to pay them for it. Artists and intelectuals are prime examples. They would love a system that would reward them for their contributions.

Not saying that capitalism is fair or our system is perfect by any means. Look at your Congress. Senators and Congress members getting rich AF and they don't do anything but hold a position. This is in other places as well. If we went Marxist that wouldn't change. Communism is a system the elites push onto the masses as a way to control them.
Individuals taking control of a society is incongruent with Marxist philosophy.

We don't have a Congress.

The existence of an elite class is also incongruent with Marxist philosophy.
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