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Forum » Universal healthcare is the way to go
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Thread: Universal healthcare is the way to go

post 1681057653 04-18-2023, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted By Cleveland33⏩
everyone in America has access to healthcare. Hell even illegal immigrants have it.
Not even remotely true. And roughly half the country has medical debt as well.
post 1681058493 04-18-2023, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted By isingmodel⏩
So no evidence, gotcha.

Healthcare has became increasingly expensive the world over primarily driven by the following:



An over 2x higher elderly population who are the primary users of advanced medical care and surgery, requiring ever increasingly complex and specialised treatment as they age, as well as years of end of life/palliative care. This same pattern is found in every country regardless of their specific healthcare model or what changes they made to it over time, which should be the biggest clue even for someone of your mental capacity.

Of course, a baldcel FAS baby might seriously think that comparing healthcare costs in 2023 to healthcare costs in 1900 and concluding that the cost increase is due to the government is a valid line of logic, but that's why we don't let such people outside without helmets.

On the other hand, a cursory glance at universal coverage systems and comparing with the US at the same time period with the same complexity of medical care and the same exact procedures done in similar kinds of hospitals tells us, unequivocally, that universal healthcare does not leave you with the highest costs - if anything the trend is the opposite.
Healthcare in the 1800's was very expensive and by the 50's it was dirt cheap. I don't need specific cost data to conclude it got more affordable even as we lead the world in quality. If you have data to suggest otherwise you're free to present it yourself, but I suspect the limit of your ability to argue a point is limited to ad hominem.

It's interesting that you point out that health care costs are on the rise everywhere, shortly after you made the point that communist healthcare is a globally accepted norm.

The only health care costs I know of that are on the decline are the non subsidized procedures. Who could have guessed that? Not a communist, that's for sure.
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post 1681058783 04-18-2023, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
Healthcare in the 1800's was very expensive and by the 50's it was dirt cheap. I don't need specific cost data to conclude it got more affordable even as we lead the world in quality. If you have data to suggest otherwise you're free to present it yourself, but I suspect the limit of your ability to argue a point is limited to ad hominem.

It's interesting that you point out that health care costs are on the rise everywhere, shortly after you made the point that communist healthcare is a globally accepted norm.

The only health care costs I know of that are on the decline are the non subsidized procedures. Who could have guessed that? Not a communist, that's for sure.
Do you really believe the healthcare market prices are near equilibrium?
post 1681058953 04-18-2023, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
Healthcare in the 1800's was very expensive and by the 50's it was dirt cheap. I don't need specific cost data to conclude it got more affordable even as we lead the world in quality. If you have data to suggest otherwise you're free to present it yourself, but I suspect the limit of your ability to argue a point is limited to ad hominem.

It's interesting that you point out that health care costs are on the rise everywhere, shortly after you made the point that communist healthcare is a globally accepted norm.

The only health care costs I know of that are on the decline are the non subsidized procedures. Who could have guessed that? Not a communist, that's for sure.
Universal healthcare/insurance is not communist.
post 1681061633 04-18-2023, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
Healthcare in the 1800's was very expensive and by the 50's it was dirt cheap. I don't need specific cost data to conclude it got more affordable even as we lead the world in quality.
Ah gotcha, so you don't need any data to substantiate an argument centered on healthcare cost data. Must be the famous Austrian praxeology in action.

An easy Google search finds this NBER paper on the subject:

https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication%...5e23ab7f30.pdf
Available data for the last two hundred years suggest that medical expenditures followed an S-shaped growth curve: variable but slowly rising before 1900, increasing to average +1% in excess of real per capita income for the next half-century, surging to more than +3% above GDP in the post-World War II era, and eventually moderating.
So the actual reality is that medical expenditures have been increasing constantly from the early 1800s. The rate of increase started accelerating once medicine moved from mostly quackery into evidence based treatments around the turn of the 20th Century, and has increased further once we started doing complex, highly specialised procedures on a rapidly increasing percentage of elderly citizens with chronic health needs.

In any case, medical costs were never plummeting due to the magic of the invisible hand at any point in US or global history. And today, the most affordable care can be found in systems which provide universal coverage.

I'd blame the FAS, but there has to be more to your unending ability to be categorically wrong on every subject you've ever talked about on any level on this forum. It's remarkable, and almost impressive.
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post 1681061823 04-18-2023, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted By Banderistan⏩
Not even remotely true. And roughly half the country has medical debt as well.
It is true. And so what? 75% can't cover a $1,000 expense, of course we have medical debt
post 1681062923 04-18-2023, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
Universal healthcare/insurance is not communist.
More importantly, according to FAS logic the communister a place is the more healthcare should cost because its the government that makes healthcare expensive

UHC systems are supposedly communister than the US system, yet equivalent procedures done there (even in the private hospitals within UHC countries) cost far less than in the US
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post 1681063313 04-18-2023, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted By isingmodel⏩
More importantly, according to FAS logic the communister a place is the more healthcare should cost because its the government that makes healthcare expensive

UHC systems are supposedly communister than the US system, yet equivalent procedures done there (even in the private hospitals within UHC countries) cost far less than in the US
Bbbb-but Milton said....
post 1681063953 04-18-2023, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
Universal healthcare/insurance is not communist.
Would you prefer if I said socialist instead of communist
Originally Posted By isingmodel⏩
More importantly, according to FAS logic the communister a place is the more healthcare should cost because its the government that makes healthcare expensive

UHC systems are supposedly communister than the US system, yet equivalent procedures done there (even in the private hospitals within UHC countries) cost far less than in the US
This is incorrect and incredibly stupid. Obviously there are other factors, like the R&D done in the US and the lifestyle differences between the US and other places. These are some of the reason only a retard would compare two different societies without even making an attempt to compensate for these things. If Americans have a far unhealthier lifestyle than the Japanese then it doesn't make sense to assume any cost differences are not affected by that, for example. To compare two societies rather than the changes in one society would require a lot more work than you're capable of doing, as evidenced by the fact that you're too stupid to even realize why it would need to be done in the first place.
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post 1681064053 04-18-2023, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted By Banderistan⏩
Bbbb-but Milton said....
Friedman at least was a credible economist who made some important contributions and used empirical evidence in research. We're in the realm of Austrian shaman voodoo rhythmic chanting at the moment
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post 1681064163 04-18-2023, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted By isingmodel⏩
Friedman at least was a credible economist who made some important contributions and used empirical evidence in research. We're in the realm of Austrian shaman voodoo rhythmic chanting at the moment
yep lol
post 1681064333 04-18-2023, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
Would you prefer if I said socialist instead of communist
I’d prefer if you put a loaded gun in your mouth and pulled the trigger, but we don’t always get what we prefer.
post 1681064443 04-18-2023, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
Would you prefer if I said socialist instead of communist
nothing but stellar arguments in support of UHC here...
post 1681064653 04-18-2023, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted By Cleveland33⏩
nothing but stellar arguments in support of UHC here...
Like I said...it comes down to what you want for a civilization. You're someone who doesn't give a crap about anyone else so nothing will convince you. I would argue it is also in your interest too since you, too, will one day have health problems. But you probably think you're immortal and will never age and suffer.
post 1681064863 04-18-2023, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted By Cleveland33⏩
nothing but stellar arguments in support of UHC here...
Nah he just takes his labels very seriously, especially when it comes to the hammer and sickle crew
Originally Posted By Banderistan⏩
Like I said...it comes down to what you want for a civilization. You're someone who doesn't give a crap about anyone else so nothing will convince you. I would argue it is also in your interest too since you, too, will one day have health problems. But you probably think you're immortal and will never age and suffer.
Bro you're willing to end the lives of millions of people if that's what it takes to get your free gibs, just lol at talking about not giving a crap about others
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post 1681064953 04-18-2023, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
Would you prefer if I said socialist instead of communist
It's not that either.

I have universal care/insurance and hospitals are independent corporations run by their own board of directors.
post 1681065013 04-18-2023, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
Nah he just takes his labels very seriously, especially when it comes to the hammer and sickle crew



Bro you're willing to end the lives of millions of people if that's what it takes to get your free gibs, just lol at talking about not giving a crap about others
No I'm not. Just because I think Stalin was a good leader doesn't mean we can't do much better than that now given what we know. They didn't have the luxury of all of that back then.
post 1681065493 04-18-2023, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
It's not that either.

I have universal care/insurance and hospitals are independent corporations run by their own board of directors.
You're Canadian right?
Originally Posted By Banderistan⏩
No I'm not. Just because I think Stalin was a good leader doesn't mean we can't do much better than that now given what we know. They didn't have the luxury of all of that back then.
It's cool that you're willing to try to do better in that regard but the fact remains, if that's the cost you're willing to pay it. And by pay it I mean let others pay it. This is what's funny about moralizing from communists. You're not talking about helping people yourself, you're talking about using laws and threats of violence to force others to obey some heavily authoritarian bureaucracy and then patting yourself on the back for your altruism. It's insane.
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post 1681065613 04-18-2023, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
You're Canadian right?



It's cool that you're willing to try to do better in that regard but the fact remains, if that's the cost you're willing to pay it. And by pay it I mean let others pay it. This is what's funny about moralizing from communists. You're not talking about helping people yourself, you're talking about using laws and threats of violence to force others to obey some heavily authoritarian bureaucracy and then patting yourself on the back for your altruism. It's insane.
Dude having a healthcare system is a far cry from the gulag. There's a middle ground. Or do you think Finland and Sweden are authoritarian hell states? The way we currently have it actually gives people less freedom. They are enslaved and controlled by their debt to the wealthy who manipulate the system.

You can have a situation where big businesses take control of society. That's where we are right now. It can become equally tyrannical and authoritarian as you have seen with big tech's partnership with the government. And they can use private or public enforcement to suppress you. Not all tyranny comes from the state.
post 1681065863 04-18-2023, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted By Banderistan⏩
Dude having a healthcare system is a far cry from the gulag. There's a middle ground. Or do you think Finland and Sweden are authoritarian hell states? The way we currently have it actually gives people less freedom. They are enslaved and controlled by their debt to the wealthy who manipulate the system.

You can have a situation where big businesses take control of society. That's where we are right now. It can become equally tyrannical and authoritarian as you have seen with big tech's partnership with the government. And they can use private or public enforcement to suppress you. Not all tyranny comes from the state.
I see. And to overcome that capitalist tyranny if people need to die then that's just how it goes right
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post 1681065973 04-18-2023, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
I see. And to overcome that capitalist tyranny if people need to die then that's just how it goes right
People are dying now to protect the capitalist tyranny, guy. And no one needs to die. It's literally just sign a damn bill and tax a bit. Wow.
post 1681066083 04-18-2023, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
Would you prefer if I said socialist instead of communist



This is incorrect and incredibly stupid. Obviously there are other factors, like the R&D done in the US and the lifestyle differences between the US and other places. These are some of the reason only a retard would compare two different societies without even making an attempt to compensate for these things. If Americans have a far unhealthier lifestyle than the Japanese then it doesn't make sense to assume any cost differences are not affected by that, for example. To compare two societies rather than the changes in one society would require a lot more work than you're capable of doing, as evidenced by the fact that you're too stupid to even realize why it would need to be done in the first place.
Except we did talk about the change in one society too. You just ducked out of replying to that post because as well as being generally retarded you couldn't find any data to support anything you said, and then I fairly easily found data which falsified everything you had said.

This was kind of like a speedrun of Austrian economics. Come in making unsubstantiated and ludicrous claims, then argue that you don't need to show any data to support said claim because data and evidence is for commies and shaman voodoo is all you require, and then swiftly disappear from the conversation when data shows you are entirely wrong.

And yes, cross country comparisons are indeed limited, no one is arguing otherwise. But comparing the cost of advanced and highly specialised medical and surgical care for a massive elderly population in 2023, with the cost of putting leeches on people to cure disease at some point in the past and concluding that the increase in cost must be due to communism is something that only the most severe FAS sufferer could even entertain as a serious thought
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post 1681066093 04-18-2023, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted By Banderistan⏩
Like I said...it comes down to what you want for a civilization. You're someone who doesn't give a crap about anyone else so nothing will convince you. I would argue it is also in your interest too since you, too, will one day have health problems. But you probably think you're immortal and will never age and suffer.
I have medical issues, so so much for that one.

I don’t understand why you think UHC is better for other people. The reason I'm against changing is because it really won't change anything other than giving the government more control. No one will be healthier as a result if the US moving to UHC. No one.
post 1681066113 04-18-2023, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted By Banderistan⏩
People are dying now to protect the capitalist tyranny, guy. And no one needs to die. It's literally just sign a damn bill and tax a bit. Wow.
Any thoughts on why every communist revolution involved mass killing?
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post 1681066453 04-18-2023, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
Any thoughts on why every communist revolution involved mass killing?
According to you, Norway, Sweden, and Finland, are commie. Was there any mass killing to implement their healthcare systems?

Also, every capitalist country was also involved in mass killing. Mass killing was how chit was done for most of the last thousand years.
post 1681066713 04-18-2023, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted By Cleveland33⏩
I have medical issues, so so much for that one.

I don’t understand why you think UHC is better for other people. The reason I'm against changing is because it really won't change anything other than giving the government more control. No one will be healthier as a result if the US moving to UHC. No one.
The govt needs more control on this because the govt is somewhat accountable to people while profit motivated companies aren't. There are several ridiculous healthcare monopolies and a corporate bureaucracy driving up costs. And they have captured regulators. We can take that back from them.
post 1681066783 04-18-2023, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted By Banderistan⏩
According to you, Norway, Sweden, and Finland, are commie. Was there any mass killing to implement their healthcare systems?

Also, every capitalist country was also involved in mass killing. Mass killing was how chit was done for most of the last century.
I've taken you somewhat off topic for this thread so I apologize for that, but I'm talking about your previously stated desires to implement a fully communist society, not just socialized healthcare. I feel like it's obvious enough that it shouldn't need to be stated but I'm being slightly hyperbolic in calling UHC communism.

You've stated previously and unequivocally that if millions of people have to be killed to get the communist dream going then that's acceptable. If that's your position then fine, I can accept that. But there's a logical inconsistency with being willing to kill people while claiming to care about their well being. That's all.
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post 1681066943 04-18-2023, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
Any thoughts on why every communist revolution involved mass killing?
Historically, interventions to install "democracy" haven't been particularly perfectly or successful.
post 1681067093 04-18-2023, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel⏩
I've taken you somewhat off topic for this thread so I apologize for that, but I'm talking about your previously stated desires to implement a fully communist society, not just socialized healthcare. I feel like it's obvious enough that it shouldn't need to be stated but I'm being slightly hyperbolic in calling UHC communism.

You've stated previously and unequivocally that if millions of people have to be killed to get the communist dream going then that's acceptable. If that's your position then fine, I can accept that. But there's a logical inconsistency with being willing to kill people while claiming to care about their well being. That's all.
Please jump off a bridge, groomer
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.⏩
Historically, interventions to install "democracy" haven't been particularly perfectly or successful.
Yes the tyranny of the majority which some people consider the first step towards socialism. I'm not a fan, personally.
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