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Who is on your list of worst draws as champion and could never sell out arenas?
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05-24-2023, 12:39 PM
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- squat_blaster
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Who is on your list of worst draws as champion and could never sell out arenas?
Some probably should have never held the title. I guess when WWE has no one else, they can only use what they have.
Booker T
Bret Hart
Roman Reigns
Dean Ambrose
Seth Rollins
Sheamus
AJ Styles
Jinder Mahal
Kofi Kingston
Drew McIntyre (maybe not fair because no fans were allowed)
The Miz
Big E
In my opinion working hard and behaving back stage doesn't mean you deserve the title. You also need to be mega-over. None of the guys I mention are even close to Hogan, Stone Cold, Rock, Undertaker, Cena, Lesnar. Bret Hart is on the list because he could only 1/2 fill arenas. I'll give him credit he could wrestle and cut a promo. Same with Booker T, Sheamus and Miz. Think about how bad the other guys are on the mic.
Booker T
Bret Hart
Roman Reigns
Dean Ambrose
Seth Rollins
Sheamus
AJ Styles
Jinder Mahal
Kofi Kingston
Drew McIntyre (maybe not fair because no fans were allowed)
The Miz
Big E
In my opinion working hard and behaving back stage doesn't mean you deserve the title. You also need to be mega-over. None of the guys I mention are even close to Hogan, Stone Cold, Rock, Undertaker, Cena, Lesnar. Bret Hart is on the list because he could only 1/2 fill arenas. I'll give him credit he could wrestle and cut a promo. Same with Booker T, Sheamus and Miz. Think about how bad the other guys are on the mic.
05-24-2023, 01:01 PM
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Jinder and Kofi were legit next-level bad. Like they actually were bad enough to bring the prestige of the belt down a peg.
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05-24-2023, 02:34 PM
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- yieldtonothing
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nash and hbk didn't draw
05-24-2023, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted By yieldtonothing⏩
True, but not all time worstnash and hbk didn't draw
05-25-2023, 04:54 AM
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i don't know how you have Roman on there when you just saw him fill up major football stadiums for the last couple years. or do we not give champs any credit anymore for tickets/company success? we only do that when it fits the narrative we're pushing. WWE does more 30k-50k seat arenas than ever before for their PPVs/PLEs. most of them have Roman closing the show. hard to say he's not a draw, nevermind being one of the worst draws of all time.
Bret left WWF(e) in what, 1997 and we still talk about him. fans who weren't born back then go back and watch his stuff and agree he's a legend. you're saying he probably never should have held the title (5 times?). I dunno man.
i'm with you on Big E, that flopped. Kofi's build was so much bigger than the payoff although he was so hot at the time you can't blame them for giving him a chance with it. I actually didn't mind Jinder's basic foreign heel run with the title (there were also two titles at the time so it's different IMO). Agreed Drew got a raw deal and now it's not the same.
Bret left WWF(e) in what, 1997 and we still talk about him. fans who weren't born back then go back and watch his stuff and agree he's a legend. you're saying he probably never should have held the title (5 times?). I dunno man.
i'm with you on Big E, that flopped. Kofi's build was so much bigger than the payoff although he was so hot at the time you can't blame them for giving him a chance with it. I actually didn't mind Jinder's basic foreign heel run with the title (there were also two titles at the time so it's different IMO). Agreed Drew got a raw deal and now it's not the same.
05-25-2023, 05:01 AM
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05-25-2023, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted By Murph0408⏩
Roman is not a draw. The WWE is the draw especially PPVs overseas / offshore. Its supply and demand. WWE is mostly US based so of course they're gonna sell out when they go overseas.i don't know how you have Roman on there when you just saw him fill up major football stadiums for the last couple years. or do we not give champs any credit anymore for tickets/company success? we only do that when it fits the narrative we're pushing. WWE does more 30k-50k seat arenas than ever before for their PPVs/PLEs. most of them have Roman closing the show. hard to say he's not a draw, nevermind being one of the worst draws of all time.
Bret left WWF(e) in what, 1997 and we still talk about him. fans who weren't born back then go back and watch his stuff and agree he's a legend. you're saying he probably never should have held the title (5 times?). I dunno man.
Bret left WWF(e) in what, 1997 and we still talk about him. fans who weren't born back then go back and watch his stuff and agree he's a legend. you're saying he probably never should have held the title (5 times?). I dunno man.
As far as Bret goes, I went to a bunch of shows he was headlining and arenas NEVER sold out. Bret was one of the all time best, he was just not a good draw as champion.
05-25-2023, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted By jimbob007⏩
Mostly agree all mid-card champions.Warrior, Yokozuna, Diesel, Sid, Eddie, Benoit, JBL, Edge.
Except Warrior. I was at shows Warrior was headlining late 80's pre-WM 6 without Hogan and arenas mostly filled. I was also at a house show in '96 which was supposed to be Warrior's return. Halfway through the card, they announced he was a no-show and offered refunds. The arena was sold out.
05-25-2023, 09:22 AM
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Conrad/Brother Love made this argument when Bret and even Shawn wasnt a big draw, is because of the weak roster at that time too. Plus with WCW going hot with nWo.
Roman I think is a draw, at least compared to modern era champions. Have you seen the reactions he gets? Even Biggie, Kofi, Styles, Ambrose, Seth didn't get such reactions except on certain arenas or in PPVs.
Roman I think is a draw, at least compared to modern era champions. Have you seen the reactions he gets? Even Biggie, Kofi, Styles, Ambrose, Seth didn't get such reactions except on certain arenas or in PPVs.
05-25-2023, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted By squat_blaster⏩
His 1990 run was dire-he sold a lot of merch, but business was so down without Hogan & him on top that Warrior was teaming with LOD vs Demolition & they ended up getting the belt off him early to Slaughter.Mostly agree all mid-card champions.
Except Warrior. I was at shows Warrior was headlining late 80's pre-WM 6 without Hogan and arenas mostly filled. I was also at a house show in '96 which was supposed to be Warrior's return. Halfway through the card, they announced he was a no-show and offered refunds. The arena was sold out.
Except Warrior. I was at shows Warrior was headlining late 80's pre-WM 6 without Hogan and arenas mostly filled. I was also at a house show in '96 which was supposed to be Warrior's return. Halfway through the card, they announced he was a no-show and offered refunds. The arena was sold out.
05-25-2023, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted By ChristmasFnatic⏩
There's a big difference between being a draw and getting a reaction. Most wrestlers get a reaction from entrance music and a catch phrase. What would happen if Roman didn't have the Bloodline and Heyman? Hand Roman a mic by himself backstage or in the middle of the ring and watch him crumble. Roman isn't selling out arenas.Conrad/Brother Love made this argument when Bret and even Shawn wasnt a big draw, is because of the weak roster at that time too. Plus with WCW going hot with nWo.
Roman I think is a draw, at least compared to modern era champions. Have you seen the reactions he gets? Even Biggie, Kofi, Styles, Ambrose, Seth didn't get such reactions except on certain arenas or in PPVs.
Roman I think is a draw, at least compared to modern era champions. Have you seen the reactions he gets? Even Biggie, Kofi, Styles, Ambrose, Seth didn't get such reactions except on certain arenas or in PPVs.
05-25-2023, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted By squat_blaster⏩
so all these PLEs where they're breaking the attendance records (kayfabe attendance numbers or not they're still doing huge houses) where he's on top of the card you're giving Roman zero credit and saying he didn't draw. ok. so he and Lesnar get no credit for doing a football stadium summerslam in nashville at 30k+ paid? or him and Cena headlining the year prior's summerslam at the raiders' stadium?Roman is not a draw. The WWE is the draw especially PPVs overseas / offshore. Its supply and demand. WWE is mostly US based so of course they're gonna sell out when they go overseas.
how about the bloodline being the top merch sellers the last two years, we're not going to count that either? was that the Usos selling the shirts?
a lot of the traditional "huge draws" weren't doing football stadiums 3-5x a year. overseas or not. i think people just don't want it to be true; Roman is a top draw and an all-timer at this point. he has Lebron heat.
05-25-2023, 03:17 PM
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#13
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Originally Posted By squat_blaster⏩
To be fair to Roman, he really improved on the mic the past year. His mic work with Cody, with the Usos lately, Sami… way better than he did a few years ago.There's a big difference between being a draw and getting a reaction. Most wrestlers get a reaction from entrance music and a catch phrase. What would happen if Roman didn't have the Bloodline and Heyman? Hand Roman a mic by himself backstage or in the middle of the ring and watch him crumble. Roman isn't selling out arenas.
And I do think he is a draw. Maybe not the only reason but many go to shows for him mainly, especially cuz attendance is record high the past couple of years.
And you asked who is the worst- he is far from it. Recent memory- those 2 losers from New Day, AJ, Fiend, Strowman.
05-25-2023, 06:41 PM
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- kneeonbelly
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Originally Posted By squat_blaster⏩
listen brother - i respect you . but some of these names on the list are questionableSome probably should have never held the title. I guess when WWE has no one else, they can only use what they have.
Booker T
Bret Hart
Roman Reigns
Dean Ambrose
Seth Rollins
Sheamus
AJ Styles
Jinder Mahal
Kofi Kingston
Drew McIntyre (maybe not fair because no fans were allowed)
The Miz
Big E
In my opinion working hard and behaving back stage doesn't mean you deserve the title. You also need to be mega-over. None of the guys I mention are even close to Hogan, Stone Cold, Rock, Undertaker, Cena, Lesnar. Bret Hart is on the list because he could only 1/2 fill arenas. I'll give him credit he could wrestle and cut a promo. Same with Booker T, Sheamus and Miz. Think about how bad the other guys are on the mic.
Booker T
Bret Hart
Roman Reigns
Dean Ambrose
Seth Rollins
Sheamus
AJ Styles
Jinder Mahal
Kofi Kingston
Drew McIntyre (maybe not fair because no fans were allowed)
The Miz
Big E
In my opinion working hard and behaving back stage doesn't mean you deserve the title. You also need to be mega-over. None of the guys I mention are even close to Hogan, Stone Cold, Rock, Undertaker, Cena, Lesnar. Bret Hart is on the list because he could only 1/2 fill arenas. I'll give him credit he could wrestle and cut a promo. Same with Booker T, Sheamus and Miz. Think about how bad the other guys are on the mic.
booker t was deserved of his title reigns just like ddp was from hard work, fan respect and earning their place. had triple h not fuked up his wrestlemania moment he would have been on another level of stardom
bret hart was and is a legend and his contribution to wwf at the time cant really be measured. heres an additional arguable point : to lose a title you have to be pinned or submitted. Bret was not pinned or submitted for his last wwf title match with hbk (being screwed) meaning his days as champion continued until they retired that belt.
Jinder Mahal I agree with
I'll add
Kane
and my personal "i cant believe he was made champion " : Jack Swagger. He was not over, he had lisp and seemed 100% forced onto fans by stephanie mchmahon
05-26-2023, 05:59 AM
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05-26-2023, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted By kneeonbelly⏩
Allow me to clarify: I said some did not deserve to be champion, not all and my point was mostly related to those who were champion and couldn't draw.listen brother - i respect you . but some of these names on the list are questionable
booker t was deserved of his title reigns just like ddp was from hard work, fan respect and earning their place. had triple h not fuked up his wrestlemania moment he would have been on another level of stardom
bret hart was and is a legend and his contribution to wwf at the time cant really be measured. heres an additional arguable point : to lose a title you have to be pinned or submitted. Bret was not pinned or submitted for his last wwf title match with hbk (being screwed) meaning his days as champion continued until they retired that belt.
Jinder Mahal I agree with
I'll add
Kane
and my personal "i cant believe he was made champion " : Jack Swagger. He was not over, he had lisp and seemed 100% forced onto fans by stephanie mchmahon
booker t was deserved of his title reigns just like ddp was from hard work, fan respect and earning their place. had triple h not fuked up his wrestlemania moment he would have been on another level of stardom
bret hart was and is a legend and his contribution to wwf at the time cant really be measured. heres an additional arguable point : to lose a title you have to be pinned or submitted. Bret was not pinned or submitted for his last wwf title match with hbk (being screwed) meaning his days as champion continued until they retired that belt.
Jinder Mahal I agree with
I'll add
Kane
and my personal "i cant believe he was made champion " : Jack Swagger. He was not over, he had lisp and seemed 100% forced onto fans by stephanie mchmahon
Bret Hart definitely deserved the title. No argument he is one of the best of all time. My point is, even though he was champion he wasn't a draw and couldn't sell out arenas.
I do have a problem on your Booker T comments that he deserved it because he worked hard and fans liked him. By that logic, why not give the title to Angelo Dawkins or Tozowa or Cedric Alexander? They work hard and fans like them. Wouldn't it be ridiculous to have any of these guys as champion? Do you see my point? They're all mid-carders and they can't draw. Booker T was a hard worker and entertaining, but he wasn't a draw and he certainly never sold out any arenas. He was upper-mid card at best.
To me, true drawing power is what you see in the arenas regardless if PPV, TV show or house show. See Bruno, Hogan, Lesnar, Goldberg (even if he couldnt wrestle)
05-26-2023, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted By kneeonbelly⏩
Bret surrendered on his own move. He mouthed the words “Ouch! I quit!”bret hart was and is a legend and his contribution to wwf at the time cant really be measured. heres an additional arguable point : to lose a title you have to be pinned or submitted. Bret was not pinned or submitted for his last wwf title match with hbk (being screwed) meaning his days as champion continued until they retired that belt.
Jinder Mahal I agree with
Jinder Mahal I agree with
Who is that Miscer who really supported Jinder as a champ and bragged of buying his shirt? Lol
05-26-2023, 08:23 AM
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#18
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Originally Posted By kneeonbelly⏩
So Cody is a Swagger cloneand my personal "i cant believe he was made champion " : Jack Swagger. He was not over, he had lisp and seemed 100% forced onto fans by stephanie mchmahon
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05-26-2023, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted By LargePeter⏩
Cody is very similar in that regard the only difference in my opinion is theres MUCH more support for cody than there ever was for jack swagger. Jack was a weak imitation of kurt angle, with none of the specialties or humorSo Cody is a Swagger clone
Originally Posted By squat_blaster⏩
Fair enough -Allow me to clarify: I said some did not deserve to be champion, not all and my point was mostly related to those who were champion and couldn't draw.
Bret Hart definitely deserved the title. No argument he is one of the best of all time. My point is, even though he was champion he wasn't a draw and couldn't sell out arenas.
I do have a problem on your Booker T comments that he deserved it because he worked hard and fans liked him. By that logic, why not give the title to Angelo Dawkins or Tozowa or Cedric Alexander? They work hard and fans like them. Wouldn't it be ridiculous to have any of these guys as champion? Do you see my point? They're all mid-carders and they can't draw. Booker T was a hard worker and entertaining, but he wasn't a draw and he certainly never sold out any arenas. He was upper-mid card at best.
To me, true drawing power is what you see in the arenas regardless if PPV, TV show or house show. See Bruno, Hogan, Lesnar, Goldberg (even if he couldnt wrestle)
Bret Hart definitely deserved the title. No argument he is one of the best of all time. My point is, even though he was champion he wasn't a draw and couldn't sell out arenas.
I do have a problem on your Booker T comments that he deserved it because he worked hard and fans liked him. By that logic, why not give the title to Angelo Dawkins or Tozowa or Cedric Alexander? They work hard and fans like them. Wouldn't it be ridiculous to have any of these guys as champion? Do you see my point? They're all mid-carders and they can't draw. Booker T was a hard worker and entertaining, but he wasn't a draw and he certainly never sold out any arenas. He was upper-mid card at best.
To me, true drawing power is what you see in the arenas regardless if PPV, TV show or house show. See Bruno, Hogan, Lesnar, Goldberg (even if he couldnt wrestle)
I think in the case of Booker T he doesnt get enough credit. He was able go into his fued with Triple H red hot with the crowd behind him and he made it work when he worked with Austin and the Rock. He is the rare talent that could make things happen where ever he was placed. Booker T / Goldust, King Book and the few short moments with NWO were great. He worked harder than say goldberg who came in at the top, had middle of the road matches and stayed in the title picture.
05-26-2023, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted By kneeonbelly⏩
He's still being forced down our throats like Roman was. No one wants to hear his dumbass promos every fukin week, his story of struggles and chit. He ran AEW FFS.Cody is very similar in that regard the only difference in my opinion is theres MUCH more support for cody than there ever was for jack swagger. Jack was a weak imitation of kurt angle, with none of the specialties or humor
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05-26-2023, 09:57 PM
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05-26-2023, 11:28 PM
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I thought they were crazy for making Big E and Kofi Champion. Add RVD and Jeff Hardy to the list.
Carolina GameCOCKS
05-27-2023, 01:52 AM
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#23
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Originally Posted By ChristmasFnatic⏩
To be fair to Roman, he really improved on the mic the past year. His mic work with Cody, with the Usos lately, Sami… way better than he did a few years ago.
Originally Posted By ChristmasFnatic⏩
LOL. Roman’s mic work has improved so much the Smackdown night before the PPV where he is trying to win the tag titles and Jay calls himself the Tribal Chief, the biggest insult to Roman, he throws away all 3 mics from Heyman, Sami and KO? WWE purposely removing Romans most obvious weakness and protecting him from being exposed as one of the worst promo guys in the WWE. When WWE doesn’t give the top guy the last 3 years a chance to respond and cut a promo before an international PPV, something is wrong. This is why Roman is fluff.To be fair to Roman, he really improved on the mic the past year. His mic work with Cody, with the Usos lately, Sami… way better than he did a few years ago..
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