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Forum » Guitar Megathread II: Unleash the picking fury!!!
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Thread: Guitar Megathread II: Unleash the picking fury!!!

post 1689136353 08-29-2023, 01:32 AM
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#2521
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Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
Z4v4 correctly identified you as springing a pretty childish gotcha, and he actually poses a better question IMO. Yours is missing some vital context IMO: What key is it? Jazz progressions don't necessarily start from the root chord.
This is wrong. There's no need to specify the key in the progression, it's obvious to anyone who has actually spent some time studying jazz harmony. If I ask you to explain Dm7 G7 Cmaj7, will you also claim that you need to know the key to figure it out? z4 recognized the pattern and answered the question immediately, which anyone who knows anything about jazz harmony should be able to do.
Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
Z4v4 asked about chord substitutions. The diminished chord substitution has the same notes as the original chord sans sharing the root. If you eliminate the root you have the same notes, and your bass player for example, could shape the chord by choosing the root note. Why might you choose it? From memory it'd create a stronger desire in the ear for resolution to the root chord, or it could give you options for diminished scales/arpeggios over the chord.
You made a mess there. "your bass player for example, could shape the chord by choosing the root note" for instance makes no sense. You're not "eliminating the root", the root is E, the E° is used instead of a C7 precisely so that the bass player will play an E instead of a C (it's a bit old fashioned tbh, modern players would prefer to see something like C7b9/E for the same effect, z4 showing his age lol), creating a nice chromatic bass line going from Eb to E. I don't understand how you seem to have understood that for the tritone sub but not here.
Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
The second concept he poses is the tritone substition, where you substitute a 7th chord for one a tritone away (flattened fifth). Why? Offers a nice chromatic descension in your root notes of the chord progression if you're doing a II-V-I.
Well done, you get a star for this one.
Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
Was that your intention, to just accuse me of cheating or googling?
Nope, if you had answered correctly I wouldn't have accused you of cheating or googling, I intentionally chose a question that's not easy to Google.
post 1689136643 08-29-2023, 01:49 AM
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#2522
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Originally Posted By adimare⏩
You made a mess there. "your bass player for example, could shape the chord by choosing the root note" for instance makes no sense. You're not "eliminating the root", the root is E, the E° is used instead of a C7 precisely so that the bass player will play an E instead of a C (it's a bit old fashioned tbh, modern players would prefer to see something like C7b9/E for the same effect, z4 showing his age lol), creating a nice chromatic bass line going from Eb to E. I don't understand how you seem to have understood that for the tritone sub but not here.
Ok, so I got the tritone substitution. I'll explain the diminished chord. I was going by memory of what Z4v4 wrote, I had "E diminished" in my mind as only the triad. So C7 is C, E, G Bb. E dim is E, G, Bb. What I meant was that you get a C7 without the root and can still capture the sound. A bass player could add the C and make it C7 again, or or could re-emphasise the E and get the diminished sound.


I forgot z4 stated it was to be Edim7. That's legitimately on me and my B, and it explains why you saw a mess there but why I knew the tritone sub.
Back off, Warchild.

Seriously.
post 1689136933 08-29-2023, 02:08 AM
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#2523
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Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
Ok, so I got the tritone substitution. I'll explain the diminished chord. I was going by memory of what Z4v4 wrote, I had "E diminished" in my mind as only the triad. So C7 is C, E, G Bb. E dim is E, G, Bb. What I meant was that you get a C7 without the root and can still capture the sound.
Pointing out that they share a lot of the same notes was a good start, the mess came after that.
Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
A bass player could add the C and make it C7 again, or or could re-emphasise the E and get the diminished sound. I forgot z4 stated it was to be Edim7. That's legitimately on me and my B, and it explains why you saw a mess there but why I knew the tritone sub.
No. A bass player will never play a C as the root on an Edim chord. He would immediately notice the chromatic motion the composer intended by going from Ebmaj to Edim and play an E. This wouldn't work differently whether it's Edim or Edim7... that makes zero sense. It's jazz, the 7ths are implied whether you write them out or not.

So, how about that Dbm7 Gb7 Abmaj7 progression?
post 1689137473 08-29-2023, 02:54 AM
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#2524
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Originally Posted By adimare⏩
No. A bass player will never play a C as the root on an Edim chord. He would immediately notice the chromatic motion the composer intended by going from Ebmaj to Edim and play an E. This wouldn't work differently whether it's Edim or Edim7... that makes zero sense. It's jazz, the 7ths are implied whether you write them out or not.

So, how about that Dbm7 Gb7 Abmaj7 progression?
FYI, I wasn't explicitly stating what a bass player might or might not do in Z4's specific context. I was simply saying that the Edim triad can be seen in isolation as C7 without the root C. You can plop a C in the bass to get C7, or you can do something else with the triad (accounting for my misremembering z4 said Edim7). All I was really saying.


As for your chord progression, I admit I didn't immediately recognize this. I spent a little time looking up some things. But...I originally thought this might have been a II-V-I albeit some sort of variation I didn't recognize. Stuff I remember from top of my head are things like ii-V-I, I-VI-ii-V-I, Coltrane change, tritone subs, IV7-I7 etc.


After some brief research, I think this might be what is called a "backdoor", where you substitute the dominant 7th? IV-bVII7- root chord I. So a variation on a II-V as I suspected but didn't know the term.


If this isn't what it is, I don't know.
Back off, Warchild.

Seriously.
post 1689139053 08-29-2023, 04:30 AM
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#2525
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Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
As for your chord progression, I admit I didn't immediately recognize this. I spent a little time looking up some things. But...I originally thought this might have been a II-V-I albeit some sort of variation I didn't recognize. Stuff I remember from top of my head are things like ii-V-I, I-VI-ii-V-I, Coltrane change, tritone subs, IV7-I7 etc.

After some brief research, I think this might be what is called a "backdoor", where you substitute the dominant 7th? IV-bVII7- root chord I. So a variation on a II-V as I suspected but didn't know the term.
Correct, it's called a backdoor ii-V-I and it's extremely common (long story short, you play iv-bVII7-I).

Look man, sorry for putting you through a hard time, but you have to understand that when you tell people stuff like "I used to love studying the most abstruse elements of jazz theory and believe me it gets complex" that "believe me it gets complex" bit insinuates that you know more about the topic than they do, which is a big assumption to make when you're talking to a bunch of strangers who are also into music (for all we know badger6 is Frank Gambale).
post 1689139313 08-29-2023, 04:47 AM
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#2526
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I think the quickest way to win this dik measuring contest would be to post some clips with all of you playing.
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post 1689144393 08-29-2023, 07:04 AM
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post 1689144423 08-29-2023, 07:06 AM
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post 1689144863 08-29-2023, 07:20 AM
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#2529
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[QUOTE=rollerball;1689144423]Lmao I’m pretty much the only miscer who ever posts videos of playing.QUOTE]

Mornin' all....

Cool....haven't seen them so do you have any links?
I'd also like to see more contributions of[i] people actually playing[/i]

I have several vids of playing along with some of my favorite copy tunes but I'm no shredder.
I can play leads but I don't feel proficient at it so I have a guitarist collaborator on my originals.
I prefer to just be a rhythm player/song writer.

Back to topic.
USMC: 1965-1969
Original music:
https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandID=897733
https://soundcloud.com/chulaivet1966
Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/chulaivet/videos

Just an old guy trying to keep up his rhythm chops.
"One persons perception of good music can be another persons definition of noise"
post 1689145293 08-29-2023, 07:28 AM
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#2530
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post 1689145543 08-29-2023, 07:35 AM
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#2531
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
Yeah sure, here's a couple videos from a few years back when I was still learning solos. Tbh I'm faster and cleaner now but I stopped learning solos, whichI should really pick back up as my playing is stale af.
Ha....have you been in lazy mode lately?

Me....I had a very creative song writing phase over the last couple of years but haven't written a new song in a couple months.
A mini-creative drought ATM for me.

Back to it.
USMC: 1965-1969
Original music:
https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandID=897733
https://soundcloud.com/chulaivet1966
Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/chulaivet/videos

Just an old guy trying to keep up his rhythm chops.
"One persons perception of good music can be another persons definition of noise"
post 1689145863 08-29-2023, 07:41 AM
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#2532
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post 1689146503 08-29-2023, 07:56 AM
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#2533
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Originally Posted By Wayne
Ha....have you been in lazy mode lately?

Me....I had a very creative song writing phase over the last couple of years but haven't written a new song in a couple months.
A mini-creative drought ATM for me.

Back to it.
I'd love to write the 80s synth wave stuff too. But make it a bit more guitar heavy, I think that's already a sub-genre called shred wave. People love 80s nostalgia, it could make a decent enough side hustle at least.

I need the guitar and equipment first. I think once I actually choose the right guitar, I'd go with digital over tangible amp and get a Korg Minilog too. That might be enough to get some basic tunes going.
Back off, Warchild.

Seriously.
post 1689146523 08-29-2023, 07:57 AM
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#2534
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
Tbh guitar playing for me is more of a relaxation thing at this point, I just mindlessly shred on it. I'm much more interested in bass and piano these days, as well as video games. Here's a beginner synthwave track I made,I'm trying to learn how to write 80s retro chit.
Thx.

I take my song writing pretty seriously and strive to write about interesting, non cliche topics.
No sappy love song pablum with forlorn lyrics.
I'm just a bread & butter, 4 on the floor rock & roll type song writer.

Haven't cared much for what's out there now for a long time.
Obviously, my taste in music is generational but music taste is purely subjective anyway.

Back to it.
USMC: 1965-1969
Original music:
https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandID=897733
https://soundcloud.com/chulaivet1966
Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/chulaivet/videos

Just an old guy trying to keep up his rhythm chops.
"One persons perception of good music can be another persons definition of noise"
post 1689146663 08-29-2023, 08:00 AM
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#2535
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post 1689147023 08-29-2023, 08:10 AM
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#2536
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post 1689147083 08-29-2023, 08:11 AM
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#2537
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
Well you’re 137 years old, Wayne, give or take a few. Back when songwriting and lyrics used to mean something.
My attempts at “lyrics” are just so bad as to bordering on horrific. So I stick to instrumental song craft lol.
Ha....close enough.
At 76 I sometimes feel "137".

I agree.
I'm very particular about what I like and what I think has even a modicum of musical merit or appeal.
Song writing is not easy by any stretch and I've been doing it for over 4 decades.
It's a process that must be developed & nurtured over time.
It requires writing discipline, focus on lyrical continuity and the desire to finish it.

I know my place in the music arena and never have had any lofty ideas about being famous even though I played in live bands for a decade.
I play and write as personal enjoyment & creative therapy....that's it.

Currently, I have 49 originals recorded over 4+ decades but only about 28 or so uploaded soundclick.

Carry on.
USMC: 1965-1969
Original music:
https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandID=897733
https://soundcloud.com/chulaivet1966
Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/chulaivet/videos

Just an old guy trying to keep up his rhythm chops.
"One persons perception of good music can be another persons definition of noise"
post 1689147163 08-29-2023, 08:13 AM
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#2538
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post 1689147513 08-29-2023, 08:21 AM
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#2539
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
Writing a good song seems like a very difficult thing to do. To be able to come up with appealing verses and a bridge, chorus, outro or whatever - all that stuff is very impressive to me when done well.
That's correct and 'good' is quite subjective as we all know.
My take on the that....."one persons perception of good music is another person definition of noise".

Carry on.
USMC: 1965-1969
Original music:
https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandID=897733
https://soundcloud.com/chulaivet1966
Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/chulaivet/videos

Just an old guy trying to keep up his rhythm chops.
"One persons perception of good music can be another persons definition of noise"
post 1689147673 08-29-2023, 08:25 AM
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#2540
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post 1689148143 08-29-2023, 08:35 AM
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#2541
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
This was my last attempt at writing a song on a piano a long ass time ago based upon an improvisation, never got anywhere with trying to craft these improvisational parts into actual song parts. I cut out the singing part lmao.
There are a few good sections to the composition.
They just need to be better defined and organized into a coherent, easy to relate to structure.

If it were me....that would be the next step if I wanted to develop this further.

Vocals are my biggest recording hurdle.
Always had a mild confidence issue in that regard.

Hope that helps.

Carry on.
USMC: 1965-1969
Original music:
https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandID=897733
https://soundcloud.com/chulaivet1966
Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/chulaivet/videos

Just an old guy trying to keep up his rhythm chops.
"One persons perception of good music can be another persons definition of noise"
post 1689148503 08-29-2023, 08:41 AM
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#2542
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post 1689148733 08-29-2023, 08:46 AM
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#2543
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
I've discovered that I have very little stamina for song crafting. It's very difficult for me to commit to a part and say to myself "yeah, this part is done. I'm 100% satisfied with how this part sounds and put my stamp of approval on it."
I can never stop tweaking a part until I no longer have any sense of aesthetics or artistry anymore because I'm over-thunk it to the point where I've lost any organic connection to what I originally came up with.
I think many to most that are playing an instrument may share your comments.
Nothing is easy about song writing!


Back to it.
USMC: 1965-1969
Original music:
https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandID=897733
https://soundcloud.com/chulaivet1966
Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/chulaivet/videos

Just an old guy trying to keep up his rhythm chops.
"One persons perception of good music can be another persons definition of noise"
post 1689153693 08-29-2023, 10:10 AM
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#2544
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
Tbh guitar playing for me is more of a relaxation thing at this point, I just mindlessly shred on it
Most of the time I just improvise over backing tracks or learn riffs
No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.

-Socrates
post 1689156103 08-29-2023, 10:47 AM
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#2545
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
Tbh guitar playing for me is more of a relaxation thing at this point, I just mindlessly shred on it.
I'm guilty of picking up the guitar, wanking off with licks I can play in my sleep, and then putting it down. It can still be satisfying when you're happy with your tone but very little progress is made that way.

The best thing you can do is play songs, whether they're someone else's or your own. And one of the best things to do when playing songs is to record them so you can really drill down and perfect those parts. It's only when you record them, whether that's with a loop pedal, DAW, multitrack, even your phone, that you can identify areas to improve.

I use one of those little TC Ditto+ loop pedals with 99 memory slots to develop ideas and then dump the tracks onto my phone so I can scrutinize my playing hours later. One of the best things to do is just improvise over a loop for say 10 minutes, record it to your phone, and then make notes with timestamps later on the best parts of that improvisation when you're away from the instrument.

The main point is to avoid aimlessly noodling.
post 1689156273 08-29-2023, 10:50 AM
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#2546
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post 1689156993 08-29-2023, 11:00 AM
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#2547
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Originally Posted By rollerball⏩
I wonder if the FM3 has a looper, I've never really payed much attention if it does or not.

A looper is a good idea
https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/i...e=Looper_block
post 1689157073 08-29-2023, 11:01 AM
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#2548
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I got a great price on a Donner Circle looper about a month ago but I haven't had the time to really use it yet
I don't answer questions
post 1689157303 08-29-2023, 11:06 AM
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#2549
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Originally Posted By Dominik⏩
The main point is to avoid aimlessly noodling.
My personal take:

I totally agree.
Noodling ad nauseum in the pentatonic trap is a dead end.
Noodling may be funin that momentbut learning actual songs is paramount to truly excel.

I get it....most just may play for those 'in the moment' riffing enjoyment so nothing wrong with that.

Back to it.
USMC: 1965-1969
Original music:
https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandID=897733
https://soundcloud.com/chulaivet1966
Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/chulaivet/videos

Just an old guy trying to keep up his rhythm chops.
"One persons perception of good music can be another persons definition of noise"
post 1689157603 08-29-2023, 11:11 AM
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#2550
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