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» MRNA covid vaccines caused pregnant rats to have autistic male offspring
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post 1696661913 01-20-2024, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted By jtaylor2010
I give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he’s a troll. This is also supported by his posting style, which is evident in pretty much every thread he enters. Plus, even if he agrees with a study he’ll spend hours arguing semantics with posters even though he agrees with them, presumably just because he likes being irritating.
Everyone has their own approach to review.

Some are perhaps a little more standard than others
post 1696662133 01-20-2024, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
Everyone has their own approach to review.

Some are perhaps a little more standard than others
You would let covid fuk your mouth if you could. Wouldn't you...scientist.
It's a hot night. The mind races. You think about your knife: the only friend who hasn't betrayed you, the only friend who won't be dead by sunup. Sleep tight mates, in your quilted chambray night shirts.
post 1696662723 01-20-2024, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted By jtaylor2010
Ok, so we can look past that term and just focus on these findings.


“Furthermore, there was a substantial decrease in neuronal counts in critical brain regions, indicating potential neurodegeneration or altered neurodevelopment. Male rats also demonstrated impaired motor performance, evidenced by reduced coordination and agility.”
They start with this:
Originally Posted By J.L.C.
"The Shapiro–Wilk test was utilized to assess the normality of data distribution. "

Why do people do this when it's the distribution of residuals that is the assumption?
However,
Originally Posted By J.L.C.
The outcomes were counts, times, and cycle thresholds for which ANOVA and t-tests are inappropriate since they assume unbounded, continuous, dependant variables.
and
Originally Posted By J.L.C.
Ignoring the correlated errors (residuals) in multivariate outcomes such as these is almostp hacking, imo.
plus
Originally Posted By J.L.C.
The number of extrapolations made on the basis of 8 rats per group is concerning.

The conclusions just aren't supported by the data.

It's "autism-like" because autism isn't really a thing in rats, and I'm not even sure it's fair to say that it was "autism-like" because the observed differences were still within the typical range of rat behaviour.

One critical flaw is that the authors didn't scale down the dose for rats, they gave them an adult human dose. Note that the average rat weighs less than a pound. No explanation is offered in the article as to why the authors went with a dose that would be given to an adult human.

It also does not appear to be blinded.
post 1696662813 01-20-2024, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted By Anachron
He's the product of the beavercel educational system.
But apparently what they lack in some of the more foundational stuff, they make up for by teaching magic.
post 1696662843 01-20-2024, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted By jtaylor2010
But apparently what they lack in some of the more foundational stuff, they make up for by teaching magic.
Some folks do seem to think techniques like regression are magic
post 1696663823 01-20-2024, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
Some folks do seem to think techniques like regression are magic
Tips for regression, continue wearing a mask everywhere you go, only leave the residence when absolutely necessary, and stay up to date on your booster shots.....
post 1696663973 01-20-2024, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted By Dave22reborn
Tips for regression, continue wearing a mask everywhere you go, only leave the residence when absolutely necessary, and stay up to date on your booster shots.....
I disagree.

In this particular case, I think generalized linear models that account for the nature of the data world have been more appropriate
post 1696665903 01-20-2024, 09:47 AM
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Rat study alleged to link COVID-19 vaccines to autism cannot be generalized to humans and contains important limitations

https://healthfeedback.org/claimrevi...t-limitations/

Conclusion

Overall, while the Neurochemical Research study’s results can provide grounds for further exploratory studies using more animals, the study contains significant limitations that don’t allow one to reliably draw general conclusions about the vaccine’s effect in rat development, let alone its effect in human development. The authors also cautioned that their results couldn’t be generalized to humans as the study only examined animals.

Numerous scientific studies so far have found no association between autism and vaccination. Social media posts implying that the study shows COVID-19 vaccines cause autism fail to account for its limitations, such as the fact that it evaluated only animals and used a dose of questionable clinical relevance.
post 1696666083 01-20-2024, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted By WetCoaster
Rat study alleged to link COVID-19 vaccines to autism cannot be generalized to humans and contains important limitations

https://healthfeedback.org/claimrevi...t-limitations/

Conclusion

Overall, while the Neurochemical Research study’s results can provide grounds for further exploratory studies using more animals, the study contains significant limitations that don’t allow one to reliably draw general conclusions about the vaccine’s effect in rat development, let alone its effect in human development. The authors also cautioned that their results couldn’t be generalized to humans as the study only examined animals.

Numerous scientific studies so far have found no association between autism and vaccination. Social media posts implying that the study shows COVID-19 vaccines cause autism fail to account for its limitations, such as the fact that it evaluated only animals and used a dose of questionable clinical relevance.
In addition to flawed/inappropriate statistical methods.

The paper says the data are available ("The datasets supporting the conclusions of this article are included within the article and its additional files"), but that statement is not true.

I'd like to see how the results look with more appropriate methods.
post 1696666353 01-20-2024, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
I Heart Covid!
You're a covid bug chaser, aren't you.
It's a hot night. The mind races. You think about your knife: the only friend who hasn't betrayed you, the only friend who won't be dead by sunup. Sleep tight mates, in your quilted chambray night shirts.
post 1696667903 01-20-2024, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted By WetCoaster
Rat study alleged to link COVID-19 vaccines to autism cannot be generalized to humans and contains important limitations

https://healthfeedback.org/claimrevi...t-limitations/

Conclusion

Overall, while the Neurochemical Research study’s results can provide grounds for further exploratory studies using more animals, the study contains significant limitations that don’t allow one to reliably draw general conclusions about the vaccine’s effect in rat development, let alone its effect in human development. The authors also cautioned that their results couldn’t be generalized to humans as the study only examined animals.

Numerous scientific studies so far have found no association between autism and vaccination. Social media posts implying that the study shows COVID-19 vaccines cause autism fail to account for its limitations, such as the fact that it evaluated only animals and used a dose of questionable clinical relevance.
So they just reiterated what the authors said…. #Deboonked!


It's imperative to recognize the limitations of our research, given that it relies on animal models. Caution should be exercised in generalizing these results to humans. Further rigorous clinical studies are required to confirm these observations in human populations and to ascertain the exact mechanisms at play.

Given the public health significance of understanding the effects of COVID-19 vaccination, especially during pregnancy, comprehensive studies are vital. These should weigh the benefits and potential risks of vaccination, focusing on ensuring optimal neurodevelopmental outcomes. Our findings underscore the importance of continued research in this domain to guarantee the safety and well-being of all individuals, especially those who are pregnant and their offspring.
post 1696668143 01-20-2024, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted By jtaylor2010
So they just reiterated what the authors said…. #Deboonked!


It's imperative to recognize the limitations of our research, given that it relies on animal models. Caution should be exercised in generalizing these results to humans. Further rigorous clinical studies are required to confirm these observations in human populations and to ascertain the exact mechanisms at play.

Given the public health significance of understanding the effects of COVID-19 vaccination, especially during pregnancy, comprehensive studies are vital. These should weigh the benefits and potential risks of vaccination, focusing on ensuring optimal neurodevelopmental outcomes. Our findings underscore the importance of continued research in this domain to guarantee the safety and well-being of all individuals, especially those who are pregnant and their offspring.
But there are studies of the effects vaccination on human pregnancy and conception.

They don't support the narrative, so they tend to be ignored 'round here
post 1696669743 01-20-2024, 11:20 AM
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Seems like some people think the science is settled and that no further research should be done, even if that means potentially putting unborn children at risk. Everyone’s different I guess.
post 1696670363 01-20-2024, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted By jtaylor2010
Seems like some people think the science is settled and that no further research should be done, even if that means potentially putting unborn children at risk. Everyone’s different I guess.
Indeed.

Like those who don't like a single survey-based study and decide everything on a topic is fake

It's mostly new researchers who seem to think science becomes "settled".
post 1696672583 01-20-2024, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
Indeed.

Like those who don't like a single survey-based study and decide everything on a topic is fake

It's mostly new researchers who seem to think science becomes "settled".
Probably shouldnt have lied so much about masks, transmission, etc; going so far as to ruin the lives of people who's messaging turned out to be correct. Kind of amazing that the scientific community doesnt understand why no one trusts them. Maybe step out of the echo chamber every once in a while
“It’s the bill of rights, not the bill of requests. Rights are not up for negotiations.” Thomas Massie, MAGA enemy #1
post 1696672833 01-20-2024, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel
Probably shouldnt have lied so much about masks, transmission, etc; going so far as to ruin the lives of people who's messaging turned out to be correct. Kind of amazing that the scientific community doesnt understand why no one trusts them. Maybe step out of the echo chamber every once in a while
I get why people take that perspective.

But, masks work and no other vaccines went through challenge trials prior to approval, either.

I step out of the misc regularly
post 1696683293 01-20-2024, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
I get why people take that perspective.

But, masks work and no other vaccines went through challenge trials prior to approval, either.

I step out of the misc regularly
We're back to saying masks work again? Let me guess, the people still wearing one, it "protects" them?
post 1696683703 01-20-2024, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted By Dave22reborn
We're back to saying masks work again? Let me guess, the people still wearing one, it "protects" them?
Back?
post 1696684093 01-20-2024, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted By Anachron
LOL, why are you guys still arguing with Justin's Little Cuck?

Neg and move on.
U mad they aren't following orders?

post 1696684553 01-20-2024, 04:23 PM
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Prenatal Exposure to COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 Induces Autism-Like Behaviors in Male Neonatal Rats: Insights into WNT and BDNF Signaling Perturbations

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38198049/

"Concerns have arisen about the potential neurodevelopmental implications of these vaccines, especially in susceptible groups such as pregnant women and their offspring.

Our findings reveal that the mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine significantly alters WNT gene expression and BDNF levels in both male and female rats, suggesting a profound impact on key neurodevelopmental pathways. Notably, male rats exhibited pronounced autism-like behaviors, characterized by a marked reduction in social interaction and repetitive patterns of behavior. Furthermore, there was a substantial decrease in neuronal counts in critical brain regions, indicating potential neurodegeneration or altered neurodevelopment. Male rats also demonstrated impaired motor performance, evidenced by reduced coordination and agility. Our research provides insights into the effects of the COVID-19 mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine on WNT gene expression, BDNF levels, and certain neurodevelopmental markers in a rat model. More extensive studies are needed to confirm these observations in humans and to explore the exact mechanisms. A comprehensive understanding of the risks and rewards of COVID-19 vaccination, especially during pregnancy, remains essential.
post 1696684593 01-20-2024, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
Prenatal Exposure to COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 Induces Autism-Like Behaviors in Male Neonatal Rats: Insights into WNT and BDNF Signaling Perturbations

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38198049/

"Concerns have arisen about the potential neurodevelopmental implications of these vaccines, especially in susceptible groups such as pregnant women and their offspring.

Our findings reveal that the mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine significantly alters WNT gene expression and BDNF levels in both male and female rats, suggesting a profound impact on key neurodevelopmental pathways. Notably, male rats exhibited pronounced autism-like behaviors, characterized by a marked reduction in social interaction and repetitive patterns of behavior. Furthermore, there was a substantial decrease in neuronal counts in critical brain regions, indicating potential neurodegeneration or altered neurodevelopment. Male rats also demonstrated impaired motor performance, evidenced by reduced coordination and agility. Our research provides insights into the effects of the COVID-19 mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine on WNT gene expression, BDNF levels, and certain neurodevelopmental markers in a rat model. More extensive studies are needed to confirm these observations in humans and to explore the exact mechanisms. A comprehensive understanding of the risks and rewards of COVID-19 vaccination, especially during pregnancy, remains essential.
That's the same paper some of us have been discussing....

Just lol
post 1696684653 01-20-2024, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
Back?
but we already discussed this, you lied about transmittable viral load size...'member?
post 1696684703 01-20-2024, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
That's the same paper some of us have been discussing....

Just lol
Yes I know...I did not see this published linked...post number please if I missed it
post 1696685483 01-20-2024, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
Yes I know...I did not see this published linked...post number please if I missed it
Linked in the blog post in the OP

and then here on the first page:
Originally Posted By JUSA
The work here? He linked it in the substack.

https://link.springer.com/article/10...3-04089-2#Tab4
Some thoughts on the study:
Originally Posted By jtaylor2010
Ok, so we can look past that term and just focus on these findings.


“Furthermore, there was a substantial decrease in neuronal counts in critical brain regions, indicating potential neurodegeneration or altered neurodevelopment. Male rats also demonstrated impaired motor performance, evidenced by reduced coordination and agility.”
They start with this:
Originally Posted By J.L.C.
"The Shapiro–Wilk test was utilized to assess the normality of data distribution. "

Why do people do this when it's the distribution of residuals that is the assumption?
However,
Originally Posted By J.L.C.
The outcomes were counts, times, and cycle thresholds for which ANOVA and t-tests are inappropriate since they assume unbounded, continuous, dependant variables.
and
Originally Posted By J.L.C.
Ignoring the correlated errors (residuals) in multivariate outcomes such as these is almostp hacking, imo.
plus
Originally Posted By J.L.C.
The number of extrapolations made on the basis of 8 rats per group is concerning.

The conclusions just aren't supported by the data.

It's "autism-like" because autism isn't really a thing in rats, and I'm not even sure it's fair to say that it was "autism-like" because the observed differences were still within the typical range of rat behaviour.

One critical flaw is that the authors didn't scale down the dose for rats, they gave them an adult human dose. Note that the average rat weighs less than a pound. No explanation is offered in the article as to why the authors went with a dose that would be given to an adult human.

It also does not appear to be blinded.
Originally Posted By J.L.C.
In addition to flawed/inappropriate statistical methods.

The paper says the data are available ("The datasets supporting the conclusions of this article are included within the article and its additional files"), but that statement is not true.

I'd like to see how the results look with more appropriate methods.
post 1696686673 01-20-2024, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
Linked in the blog post in the OP

and then here on the first page:




Some thoughts on the study:



They start with this:



However,



and



plus
That's quite a bit of speculation and here-say you have going on in those posts.

First off the Shapiro-Wilk test is just a statistical test used to check if a random sample comes from a normally distributed population. Nothing wrong with using that test


Second if you are going to argue that hormone levels and other factors differ to such a degree in the rats...you have to prove that and I'm curious why you would assume that to begin with..?

Third..you claimed these changes "were still within typical rat behavior"...that was not the finding of the study. They saw a reduction in cognitive ability and all other aspects..

"autism-like behaviors, characterized by a marked reduction in social interaction and repetitive patterns of behavior. Furthermore, there was a substantial decrease in neuronal counts in critical brain regions, indicating potential neurodegeneration or altered neurodevelopment. Male rats also demonstrated impaired motor performance, evidenced by reduced coordination and agility. Our research provides insights into the effects of the COVID-19 mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine on WNT gene expression, BDNF levels, and certain neurodevelopmental markers in a rat model."
post 1696687173 01-20-2024, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
That's quite a bit of speculation and here-say you have going on in those posts.

First off the Shapiro-Wilk test is just a statistical test used to check if a random sample comes from a normally distributed population. Nothing wrong with using that test


Second if you are going to argue that hormone levels and other factors differ to such a degree in the rats...you have to prove that and I'm curious why you would assume that to begin with..?

Third..you claimed these changes "were still within typical rat behavior"...that was not the finding of the study. They saw a reduction in cognitive ability and all other aspects..

"autism-like behaviors, characterized by a marked reduction in social interaction and repetitive patterns of behavior. Furthermore, there was a substantial decrease in neuronal counts in critical brain regions, indicating potential neurodegeneration or altered neurodevelopment. Male rats also demonstrated impaired motor performance, evidenced by reduced coordination and agility. Our research provides insights into the effects of the COVID-19 mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine on WNT gene expression, BDNF levels, and certain neurodevelopmental markers in a rat model."
No.

There's no speculation, simply convention.

Counts and times to event shouldn't be Gaussian.

ANOVA's and t-tests areanachronisms
post 1696687363 01-20-2024, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
No.

There's no speculation, simply convention.

ANOVA's and t-tests are anachronistic
Again, you have to show levels differ between the test rats to such a degree that it would effect outcome and explain why you think there would be such a degree of variance
post 1696688103 01-20-2024, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
Again, you have to show levels differ between the test rats to such a degree that it would effect outcome and explain why you think there would be such a degree of variance
Definitely.

But that can be done with appropriate models
post 1696688453 01-20-2024, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted By J.L.C.
Definitely.

But that can be done with appropriate models
Their model was appropriate. You not liking something does not make in invalid
post 1696689133 01-20-2024, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted By Paul
Their model was appropriate. You not liking something does not make in invalid
Nope

ANOVA's and t-tests (both are Gaussian) are not the most appropriate (maximizing entropy) for counts and times to event..

They just aren't the best models.

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