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I utterly Destroy the abortion argument in 30 seconds. Isn't even a response.
I utterly Destroy the abortion argument in 30 seconds. Isn't even a response.
07-07-2021, 09:11 PM
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#1
- bdaswat
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I utterly Destroy the abortion argument in 30 seconds. Isn't even a response.
The debate is over, and it was over before it started.
"BEFORE I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;
“I knew you BEFORE I formed you in your mother’s womb.
Jeremiah 1:5
Your eyes saw my UNFORMED substance - Psalm 139:16
Even as he chose us in him BEFORE the foundation of the world...Ephesians 1:4 ESV
But when he who had set me apart BEFORE I was born, - Galatians 1:15 ESV
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my UNFORMED substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me -Psalm 139:15-16
(there's over 100 verseshttps://www.openbible.info/topics/go...e_we_were_born).
So as I was researching this, I said wait a minute... there isn't any debate about "what day an embryo is "x" or what trimester is "y"... Day ONE is the standard. That's a complete fallacy and ignorant understanding of how we are formed. Mind = Blown.
So before we were even conceived, we EXISTED. Again, this is like doctrinal level Christianity, and I'm not sure anyone will understand what I'm talking about unless you have a complete understanding of the Bible (in general). Again, if even one person knows what I'm talking about, i'm referring to ecclesiastical studies about humans existing in heaven until called down to our bodies, aka being born. Pretty fascinating stuff. Then if you really want to nerd out, SCIENCE and technology goes further and further down this path with each advancement in the medical field if any of you guys study that. (would like to dive into some of that in this thread.)
"BEFORE I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;
“I knew you BEFORE I formed you in your mother’s womb.
Jeremiah 1:5
Your eyes saw my UNFORMED substance - Psalm 139:16
Even as he chose us in him BEFORE the foundation of the world...Ephesians 1:4 ESV
But when he who had set me apart BEFORE I was born, - Galatians 1:15 ESV
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my UNFORMED substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me -Psalm 139:15-16
(there's over 100 verseshttps://www.openbible.info/topics/go...e_we_were_born).
So as I was researching this, I said wait a minute... there isn't any debate about "what day an embryo is "x" or what trimester is "y"... Day ONE is the standard. That's a complete fallacy and ignorant understanding of how we are formed. Mind = Blown.
So before we were even conceived, we EXISTED. Again, this is like doctrinal level Christianity, and I'm not sure anyone will understand what I'm talking about unless you have a complete understanding of the Bible (in general). Again, if even one person knows what I'm talking about, i'm referring to ecclesiastical studies about humans existing in heaven until called down to our bodies, aka being born. Pretty fascinating stuff. Then if you really want to nerd out, SCIENCE and technology goes further and further down this path with each advancement in the medical field if any of you guys study that. (would like to dive into some of that in this thread.)
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07-07-2021, 09:19 PM
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07-07-2021, 09:20 PM
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07-07-2021, 09:42 PM
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#4
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This isn't going to convince anyone OP, but it does raise another major dillema
If people exist before conception and certain people refrain from having children, what happens to these pre-human souls? do they stay in limbo?
Is it therefor unethical NOT to have as many children as humanely possible?
If people exist before conception and certain people refrain from having children, what happens to these pre-human souls? do they stay in limbo?
Is it therefor unethical NOT to have as many children as humanely possible?
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07-07-2021, 09:47 PM
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- SmashinYoungVag
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If you kill pregnant women it’s considered a double homicide.
But if she kills the baby it’s not a homicide.
Murder is murder it shouldn’t matter who the one doing it is
But if she kills the baby it’s not a homicide.
Murder is murder it shouldn’t matter who the one doing it is
07-07-2021, 09:48 PM
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07-07-2021, 10:05 PM
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07-07-2021, 10:07 PM
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07-07-2021, 10:24 PM
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If the goal of Christians is to get souls into heaven, and if aborted babies are without sin they would go to heaven, why aren't Christians for abortion? Fast track to salvation. It's all about efficiency.
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07-07-2021, 10:25 PM
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07-07-2021, 10:40 PM
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#11
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But we can kill them later, right?
And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. As well the stranger as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.
And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. As well the stranger as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.
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07-07-2021, 11:23 PM
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#12
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Originally Posted By SmashinYoungVag⏩
There is much more nuance to such charges.If you kill pregnant women it’s considered a double homicide.
But if she kills the baby it’s not a homicide.
Murder is murder it shouldn’t matter who the one doing it is
But if she kills the baby it’s not a homicide.
Murder is murder it shouldn’t matter who the one doing it is
Viable fetus is the usual standard for a two count murder. Some states don't allow abortion of a viable fetus and charge accordingly.
Soooo....
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07-07-2021, 11:38 PM
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#13
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07-07-2021, 11:41 PM
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I draw the line at conception; the formation of a genetically unique individual. Anything after that and the line in the sand seems to be wholly arbitrary and you'll inevitably exclude something uncontroversially alive.
Back off, Warchild.
Seriously.
07-07-2021, 11:49 PM
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#15
Originally Posted By Bodhy⏩
So how do you feel about terminating someone in a vegetative state?I draw the line at conception; the formation of a genetically unique individual. Anything after that and the line in the sand seems to be wholly arbitrary and you'll inevitably exclude something uncontroversially alive.
You also kill human life everytime you scratch yourself.
Clearly a few cells are meaningless, but after some point, we start to care.
07-08-2021, 12:24 AM
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#16
If someone is in a coma, but they're brain dead and you pull the plug is that murder? When you know they won't be in a coma in 6 months
Never heard a good counter argument.
Medically the overwhelming odds are that a life will succeed conception when unabated (birth) and therefore should be subject human rights (murder is illegal). Conception is a de facto human life.
Jerking off or expelling a vagina eggs by themselves does not fall under the same legal protection because legal protection for life only occurs when the de facto human life occurs at conception. There could be a compelling moral case that pulling out or using condoms also constitutes prevention of a human life akin to abortion (the illegal ending of a human life) however there's no conception and therefore no murder in that situation.
This is strictly on the basis
After conception a being will form, therefore impeding and ending this process physically or chemically is deprivation of life and equal protection
Never heard a good counter argument.
Medically the overwhelming odds are that a life will succeed conception when unabated (birth) and therefore should be subject human rights (murder is illegal). Conception is a de facto human life.
Jerking off or expelling a vagina eggs by themselves does not fall under the same legal protection because legal protection for life only occurs when the de facto human life occurs at conception. There could be a compelling moral case that pulling out or using condoms also constitutes prevention of a human life akin to abortion (the illegal ending of a human life) however there's no conception and therefore no murder in that situation.
This is strictly on the basis
No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws
yada yada yadaAfter conception a being will form, therefore impeding and ending this process physically or chemically is deprivation of life and equal protection
07-08-2021, 01:29 AM
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#17
Originally Posted By bdaswat⏩
Is it though?Pretty fascinating stuff
A discussion about existence of God in general is one thing, using Bible and quotes from it in a discussion in a completely different thing.
If you can't simply understand that Bible, Quran and any other man made religion is just that, a man made concept then you can't be taken seriously. Normal people do not think that 2000 years ago some dude that happens to be God's son came down and started turning water into wine and perform miracles. This ain't Marvel, supernatural chit doesn't just happen, it's not the reality we live in. It's not what you chose to believe, it just doesn't happen. This is not some non believer devil thinking, it's just science, logic and common sense, it's literally what's in front of you.
With that being said, if nothing supernatural has ever happened then how could you possibly base your life and your life's decisions on vague quotes from a book, a book that was 100% was written by a human being, a human being who also did not have any knowledge of anything supernatural.
Do you not see a problem with your way of thinking? Can you not see that your neighbor might be Muslim who has his own book with his own rituals and God and uses these to explain his life and his decisions about everything? Does that not stop you and makes you question whether you should be using it as some sort of a life guide for yourself? If you don't see a problem there then you can't blame many of us questioning your overall intelligence....
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07-08-2021, 01:32 AM
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#18
Now look up ensoulment
Or rate at which zygotes naturally make it to full term. Around 15%
So your godhead is destroying 85% of “human souls”
You have destroyed nothing, nor added anything to the argument apart from the “my religion says you can’t do this” point of view
And you know where you can shove that
Or rate at which zygotes naturally make it to full term. Around 15%
So your godhead is destroying 85% of “human souls”
You have destroyed nothing, nor added anything to the argument apart from the “my religion says you can’t do this” point of view
And you know where you can shove that
Originally Posted By SmashinYoungVag⏩
Interesting, where exactly is this a thing? How many places?If you kill pregnant women it’s considered a double homicide.
07-08-2021, 02:52 AM
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#19
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religious arguments don't work on the demons
use this srs
nearly all biologists agree life begins at conception, even democrats
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-a...wasnt-popular/
use this srs
nearly all biologists agree life begins at conception, even democrats
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-a...wasnt-popular/
07-08-2021, 02:53 AM
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#20
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Please don’t ever try and use these arguments in real life, unless you are trying to convince a pro-abortion Christian.
Entire NYPD should go on strike. You'll see then how quickly the mayor changes his tone.
"Dig with your hands, not with your mouths"
Entire NYPD should go on strike. You'll see then how quickly the mayor changes his tone.
07-08-2021, 02:57 AM
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#21
Originally Posted By Jessejame5⏩
Cortical folding from week 20religious arguments don't work on the demons
use this srs
nearly all biologists agree life begins at conception, even democrats
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-a...wasnt-popular/
use this srs
nearly all biologists agree life begins at conception, even democrats
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-a...wasnt-popular/
07-08-2021, 03:34 AM
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#22
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Originally Posted By Jessejame5⏩
religious arguments don't work on thedemons
use this srs
nearly all biologists agree life begins at conception, even democrats
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-a...wasnt-popular/
use this srs
nearly all biologists agree life begins at conception, even democrats
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-a...wasnt-popular/
Originally Posted By Rabbitjb⏩
spottedCortical folding from week 20
Op, the demons often abandon their initial position of 'my body my choice' (abortion whenever the woman feels like it),
and soothe their cognitive dissonance by offering a compromise and choosing an arbitrary event such as fetal heartbeat or ex utero viability as the day its no longer moral to abort
but remember, this isn't a negotiation. the logic is airtight, hold your ground
07-08-2021, 03:41 AM
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#23
- kingmanaverage
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How is taking a random Bible quote "destroying" the abortion argument? Derp
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07-08-2021, 04:00 AM
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#24
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Now that I’ve seen the genetic failure that is wincel……I am pro abortion.
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07-08-2021, 04:54 AM
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#25
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
You might exist in the future. You could argue that the future is not real, though.Before conception, you don't exist.
07-08-2021, 04:59 AM
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#26
Originally Posted By Jessejame5⏩
It is my body my choice when people propose prophylactic vasectomies though isn’t it ? Which is a far more sensible plan for your issues.spotted
Op, the demons often abandon their initial position of 'my body my choice' (abortion whenever the woman feels like it),
and soothe their cognitive dissonance by offering a compromise and choosing an arbitrary event such as fetal heartbeat or ex utero viability as the day its no longer moral to abort
but remember, this isn't a negotiation. the logic is airtight, hold your ground
Op, the demons often abandon their initial position of 'my body my choice' (abortion whenever the woman feels like it),
and soothe their cognitive dissonance by offering a compromise and choosing an arbitrary event such as fetal heartbeat or ex utero viability as the day its no longer moral to abort
but remember, this isn't a negotiation. the logic is airtight, hold your ground
Or compulsory organ donation even
The fewer unwanted pregnancies brought to term the better and you’re right you have no say in someone else’s decision about their body and their life.
07-08-2021, 05:00 AM
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#27
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OP doesn't address at what point in the womb you can legitimately be said to be formed, I think.
07-08-2021, 05:03 AM
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#28
Originally Posted By GreatOldOne⏩
Quoting wiki (spits) cos lazyOP doesn't address at what point in the womb you can legitimately be said to be formed, I think.
ensoulment is the moment at which a human being gains a soul. Some religions say that a soul is newly created within a developing child and others, especially in religions that believe in reincarnation, that the soul is pre-existing and added at a particular stage of development.
In the time of Aristotle, it was widely believed that the human soul entered the forming body at 40 days (male embryos) or 90 days (female embryos), and quickening was an indication of the presence of a soul. Other religious views are that ensoulment happens at the moment of conception; or when the child takes the first breath after being born;[1][2] at the formation of the nervous system and brain; at the first brain activity (e.g., heartbeat); or when the fetus is able to survive independently of the uterus (viability).[3]
07-08-2021, 06:03 AM
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#29
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Originally Posted By Rabbitjb⏩
I have heard in a religious context from my upbringing that this ensoulment happens at the first drawing of breath, as supposedly we are all born in a state of sin drawing the same breath as Adam and Eve. That is, the Lord blew the breath of Life into the face Adam and at that point he was a living soul, and as descendents we share the same breath.Quoting wiki (spits) cos lazy
ensoulment is the moment at which a human being gains a soul. Some religions say that a soul is newly created within a developing child and others, especially in religions that believe in reincarnation, that the soul is pre-existing and added at a particular stage of development.
In the time of Aristotle, it was widely believed that the human soul entered the forming body at 40 days (male embryos) or 90 days (female embryos), and quickening was an indication of the presence of a soul. Other religious views are that ensoulment happens at the moment of conception; or when thechild takes the first breath after being born;[1][2] at the formation of the nervous system and brain; at the first brain activity (e.g., heartbeat); or when the fetus is able to survive independently of the uterus (viability).[3]
ensoulment is the moment at which a human being gains a soul. Some religions say that a soul is newly created within a developing child and others, especially in religions that believe in reincarnation, that the soul is pre-existing and added at a particular stage of development.
In the time of Aristotle, it was widely believed that the human soul entered the forming body at 40 days (male embryos) or 90 days (female embryos), and quickening was an indication of the presence of a soul. Other religious views are that ensoulment happens at the moment of conception; or when thechild takes the first breath after being born;[1][2] at the formation of the nervous system and brain; at the first brain activity (e.g., heartbeat); or when the fetus is able to survive independently of the uterus (viability).[3]
Genesis 2:7
And LORD JEHOVAH God formed Adam of the dust from the soil, and breathed into his face the breath of life, and Adam was a living soul.
...the parts about "knowing you before you were born" in my tradition was related to predestination, and the existence of a real grand design (God's plan) for the world.
07-08-2021, 06:16 AM
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#30
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Originally Posted By Azrairc⏩
In the coma example, you are already considering a person who has a history. In the case of a fetus, it's not clear at what point during development it is fair to consider the instantiation of a new person.If someone is in a coma, but they're brain dead and you pull the plug is that murder? When you know they won't be in a coma in 6 months
Never heard a good counter argument.
Medically the overwhelming odds are that a life will succeed conception when unabated (birth) and therefore should be subject human rights (murder is illegal). Conception is a de facto human life.
Jerking off or expelling a vagina eggs by themselves does not fall under the same legal protection because legal protection for life only occurs when the de facto human life occurs at conception. There could be a compelling moral case that pulling out or using condoms also constitutes prevention of a human life akin to abortion (the illegal ending of a human life) however there's no conception and therefore no murder in that situation.
This is strictly on the basis yada yada yada
After conception a being will form, therefore impeding and ending this process physically or chemically is deprivation of life and equal protection
Never heard a good counter argument.
Medically the overwhelming odds are that a life will succeed conception when unabated (birth) and therefore should be subject human rights (murder is illegal). Conception is a de facto human life.
Jerking off or expelling a vagina eggs by themselves does not fall under the same legal protection because legal protection for life only occurs when the de facto human life occurs at conception. There could be a compelling moral case that pulling out or using condoms also constitutes prevention of a human life akin to abortion (the illegal ending of a human life) however there's no conception and therefore no murder in that situation.
This is strictly on the basis yada yada yada
After conception a being will form, therefore impeding and ending this process physically or chemically is deprivation of life and equal protection
Rights belong to persons. Crimes apply to victims as persons, which have a history.
I personally think there is no person until there is a subject of experiences. A subject of experiences necessitates a history.
It's unknown to date when exactly that happens, or could be detected. So, in my view abortion might or might not be homicide. And depending on the circumstances it might or might not be murder. I think probably always not murder, as the mother could invoke her right to self-defense to avoid a risk of death during childbirth. People minimizing the risk is a value assessment and emotional judgment, but doesn't detract from her risk and choice.
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