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» Trump's Underlying Charge
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post 1680193063 04-04-2023, 08:37 PM
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Trump's Underlying Charge

I just looked up all the charges in the NYS eCourts system, and the only thing it lists is the 34 charges of falsifying business records,PL 175.10. The underlying charge is not in the system.

This is PL 175.10





So I read up some more on PL 175.10 and found this:
Falsifying Business Records in the First Degree occurs when you violate any of the four subsections of the lesser misdemeanor offense and an Assistant District Attorney can prove beyond a reasonable doubt additional elements. Coupling to the crime of New York Penal Law 175.05, prosecutors must establish that your intent to defraud involved further criminal intent to either hide the commission of another crime or to assist in the commission of that other crime.Because of this additional offense requirement, it is routine practice for prosecutors to charge potentially more serious transgressions alongside a Penal Law 175.10 case at the time of arrest or when the matter is presented to a Grand Jury.
When does Bragg plan on notifying Trump what the other crime is? How is he supposed to defend himself?

Per the NY Times:
Although the district attorney’s officeneed not obtain a conviction on the election law violation,or even include it in the indictment,that second crime might be the aspect of the legal theory that is most vulnerable to attack.
So he doesn't need a conviction or include it in the indictment, but surely the defendant should know what the underlying crime is and whether he is being charged?


I've posted this several times today, and apparently the NY Times thinks this may be the best underlying charge for violations of NY State election law:





The Statement of Facts released by Bragg today says he violated election law:








So how does this all work? This is the shadiest thing I've ever seen.
post 1680195473 04-04-2023, 09:32 PM
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I read into that too. Also, hat crime has to be a felony as well. IOW: Bragg doesn't have the elements. He's also going to have to prove Trump guilty beyone a reasonable doubt.
post 1680195973 04-04-2023, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted By Jasonw1178
I read into that too. Also, hat crime has to be a felony as well. IOW: Bragg doesn't have the elements.He's also going to have to prove Trump guilty beyone a reasonable doubt.
No he doesn't. If the case gets in front a jury he will be convicted. If the jury doesn't convict, somebody will leak whomever didn't vote guilty and their life is over.

The judge should chuck it as the state not proving it's case, but it's a pet judge.

Trump gets convicted.

Trump loses appeal.

Trump takes it to the supreme court and that's when therealfun starts.
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post 1680196103 04-04-2023, 09:45 PM
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Bragg has no idea what the underlying charge is going to be.

During his presser, he said that it could be several underlying charges, including:

1) NY Election Law 17-152 (see OP for detail)

2) Federal Election Law Cap on Contributions Limits (he clearly has no jurisdiction)

3) False statements that were made to tax authorities


There is NY Election Law 14-126 that deals with Cap on Contributions, but Federal law would override that, and he doesn't have jurisdiction.


@34:26




post 1680196353 04-04-2023, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted By DuracellBunny
No he doesn't. If the case gets in front a jury he will be convicted. If the jury doesn't convict, somebody will leak whomever didn't vote guilty and their life is over.

The judge should chuck it as the state not proving it's case, but it's a pet judge.

Trump gets convicted.

Trump loses appeal.

Trump takes it to the supreme court and that's when therealfun starts.
This. Bragg doesn't need to prove anything. An NYC jury is a democrat jury and they will convict Trump for ANYTHING they can.
post 1680196943 04-04-2023, 10:11 PM
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post 1680197253 04-04-2023, 10:18 PM
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They're trying to charge him with fraud but they cant identify who he defrauded which is why no one persued this 6 years ago

They're saying what cohen did was illegal because he did it without trumps knowledge and trump is guilty because he told cohen to do it, and meanwhile we have to pretend citizens united never happened.

Massive clownshow incoming
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post 1680197393 04-04-2023, 10:22 PM
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New NY Times article published a few hours ago.

Get a load of this shіt:

1) They confirm that Bragg has not decided which underlying charge to use.

2) They say the Statement of Facts points mostly towards NY Election Law 17-152 - Conspiracy to promote or prevent election.

3) Here is the kicker: Not only does he not have convict of the underlying charge,he does not have to CHARGE him for an underlying crime or even prove he even committed it.They just need to show there was intent to "commit or conceal" a second crime. Is this real life? How do you accuse someone of a crime without even charging?





4) If convicted, a judge could sentence him to probation.





Explaining the Charges Against Donald Trump

The former president faces 34 felony counts in connection with a hush-money payment to a porn star before the 2016 election.
Donald J. Trump pleaded not guilty on Tuesday to 34 felony counts of falsifying business records in the first degree, all of which are tied to the former president’s role in a hush-money payment to a porn star, Stormy Daniels.

But prosecutors in the Manhattan district attorney’s office accused Mr. Trump of orchestrating a broader scheme to influence the 2016 presidential election by purchasing damaging stories about him to keep them under wraps.

“The defendant, Donald J. Trump, falsified New York business records in order to conceal an illegal conspiracy to undermine the integrity of the 2016 presidential election,” one of the prosecutors, Chris Conroy, said at Mr. Trump’s arraignment.

Here are answers to some key questions that have arisen from Tuesday’s events:

What Is Mr. Trump Accused of?

The charges trace back to a $130,000 hush-money payment that Mr. Trump’s fixer, Michael D. Cohen, made to the porn star, Stormy Daniels, in the final days of the 2016 campaign. The payment, which Mr. Cohen said he made at Mr. Trump’s direction, suppressed her story of a sexual liaison she says she had with Mr. Trump.

While serving as the commander in chief, Mr. Trump reimbursed Mr. Cohen, and that’s where the fraud kicked in, prosecutors say.

In internal records, Mr. Trump’s company classified the repayment to Mr. Cohen as legal expenses, citing a retainer agreement. Yet there were no such expenses, the prosecutors say, and the retainer agreement was fictional as well.

Those records underpin the 34 counts of falsifying business records: 11 counts involve the checks, 11 center on monthly invoices Mr. Cohen submitted to the company, and 12 involve entries in the general ledger for Mr. Trump’s trust.

Why is that a felony?

Falsifying business records can be charged as a misdemeanor offense. To elevate it to a felony, the district attorney, Alvin L. Bragg must prove that Mr. Trump’s “intent to defraud” was in service of a second crime.

In this case, it is unclear whether Mr. Bragg has settled on the specifics of that second crime. During a news conference after the arraignment, Mr. Bragg mentioned a number of potential underlying crimes, most prominently a violation of a state election law that bars any conspiracy to promote “the election of a person to public office by unlawful means.”

Do prosecutors need to convict Mr. Trump of a second crime?

No. They must only show that there was intent to “commit or conceal” a second crime.Prosecutors do not have to charge Mr. Trump with any secondary crime, or prove that he committed it. But prosecutors have not yet said definitively what crime or crimes they intend to rely on to escalate the charges to a felony level.

Why did prosecutors cite other hush money payments?

Mr. Bragg’s office linked Mr. Trump to three hush money deals. While the indictment mentions only the deal with Ms. Daniels, the prosecutors likely mentioned the other deals to begin the work of proving that Mr. Trump intended to conceal a second crime.

In addition to the indictment, the prosecutors filed a so-called statement of facts that referenced the other payoffs.

That document, which is common in complex white-collar cases, provides something of a road map for what the prosecutors could reveal at trial. And based on evidence presented to the grand jury, it details the two hush-money deals involving the National Enquirer, which has longstanding ties to Mr. Trump.

The first involved the tabloid paying $30,000 to a former Trump Tower doorman who claimed to know that Mr. Trump had fathered a child out of wedlock. The publication later determined the claim was untrue.

The National Enquirer also made a payment to Karen McDougal, Playboy’s playmate of the year in 1998, who wanted to sell her story of an affair with Mr. Trump during the 2016 campaign. She reached a $150,000 agreement with the tabloid, which bought the rights to her story to suppress it — a practice known as “catch and kill.”

The deals suggest that the payment to Ms. Daniels was not an isolated incident but rather part of a broader strategy to influence the election.

What is the maximum sentence if Mr. Trump is convicted?

The charges against Mr. Trump are all Class E felonies, which are the lowest category of felony offense in New York and carry a maximum prison sentence of four years per count, though if he were convicted a judge could sentence him to probation.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/04/n...s-records.html
post 1680197753 04-04-2023, 10:38 PM
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It's hilarious that not only is the DA a Never Trumper, the judge and jury are all Never Trumpers too. SAD!

Talk about impartial justice.

I don't expect Democrats to care because they are all corrupt and want to rape your children.
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post 1680197953 04-04-2023, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted By XterraRob
It's hilarious that not only is the DA a Never Trumper, the judge and jury are all Never Trumpers too. SAD!

Talk about impartial justice.

I don't expect Democrats to care because they are all corrupt and want to rape your children.
They need to get a change of venue asap.
post 1680199023 04-04-2023, 11:20 PM
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He's FINISHED.
Would kick em in the nuts
post 1680203533 04-05-2023, 04:01 AM
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I'm literally shaking right now
I don't answer questions
post 1680203593 04-05-2023, 04:06 AM
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Ouch
post 1680204113 04-05-2023, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted By DuracellBunny
No he doesn't. If the case gets in front a jury he will be convicted. If the jury doesn't convict, somebody will leak whomever didn't vote guilty and their life is over.

The judge should chuck it as the state not proving it's case, but it's a pet judge.

Trump gets convicted.

Trump loses appeal.

Trump takes it to the supreme court and that's when therealfun starts.
i agree 100% on the supreme court bit if it ends up there.

i have no idea on the rest of it though.
probably correct.
i still have some faith left that people will do the right thing but that is fading quickly.
post 1680204743 04-05-2023, 05:30 AM
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Nytimes says they are going to give the judge and jury multiple underlying crimes, including tax crimes. The easiest to prove is the overpayment to Michael cohen.
In addition to covering up campaign-finance crimes committed in 2016, Mr. Bragg said: “To get Michael Cohen his money back, they planned one last false statement. In order to complete the scheme, they planned to mischaracterize the repayments to Mr. Cohen as income to the New York state tax authorities.”

In the courtroom, the prosecutor Christopher Conroy accused Mr. Trump of causing the Trump Organization to create a series of false business records, adding that he “even mischaracterized for tax purposes the true nature of the payment.”
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post 1680204963 04-05-2023, 05:39 AM
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Bolten is crying his eyes out about how awful this case is and it will just boost drumpfs approval

Burriful
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post 1680205223 04-05-2023, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted By Stizzel
Bolten is crying his eyes out about how awful this case is and it will just boost drumpfs approval

Burriful
Voters don't look into anything.

They will hear "charged with multiple felonies" and the gop primary candidates will harp on it. Voters don't even like candidates cursing, no way does being charged with 34 felonies help a candidate.
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post 1680205303 04-05-2023, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted By metroins
Voters don't look into anything.

They will hear "charged with multiple felonies" and the gop primary candidates will harp on it. Voters don't even like candidates cursing, no way does being charged with 34 felonies help a candidate.
Lol, uh huh
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post 1680205483 04-05-2023, 05:55 AM
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Trump's crime is he allegedly thought about a crime.



The only way this makes it to a trial is if its a corruption plagued courtroom.


Good barometric reading on how far NYC has fallen to low IQ knuckledraggers
post 1680205543 04-05-2023, 05:59 AM
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Cohen plead guilty to federal tax evasion (among other things), and Trump was an unnamed co-conspirator. They'll maybe use state tax evasion (among other things).

I think it could be a while before all of this gets aired in court. I heard they may not be back until December.
post 1680205663 04-05-2023, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted By GreatOldOne
Cohen plead guilty to federal tax evasion (among other things), and Trump was an unnamed co-conspirator. They'll maybe use state tax evasion (among other things).

I think it could be a while before all of this gets aired in court. I heard they may not be back until December.
4 months of discovery for each party set it at December.

People say the date was set to be political but both sides agreed to 4 months of discovery each.
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post 1680205813 04-05-2023, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted By metroins
Nytimes says they are going to give the judge and jury multiple underlying crimes, including tax crimes. The easiest to prove is the overpayment to Michael cohen.
I think I was reading a little too much NY Times last night and got caught in their bullshіt spin. I then read Financial Times and AP News, and both admit that it's a weak indictment he presented yesterday. Their legal analysts tend to have a similar sentiment as Jonathan Turley, who was on Fox last night.

The fact that he didn't pick an underlying charge and lay out a clean roadmap to how he will convict Trump made the indictment look incredibly weak. Eventually, he will have to lay it all out in a bill of particulars and show how he will get it done.

But, the fact that his Statement of Facts is already pointing towards election law violations also makes it incredible risky, as they are unsure whether candidates for federal office can be tried in a state courtroom (for both a state or federal election charge).

I think one article said tax charges may be the safest route.

Here is Turley from last night:




Still, the judge and jury are not in Trump's favor.
post 1680206193 04-05-2023, 06:24 AM
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This is an interesting case. Metroins has brought up an excellent point-many many things can end up being illegal if you have a dogged prosecutor and an ax to grind. If we head down this road literally no politician is safe, nor any public figure. I expect things to get markedly worse as anybody who steps out of line or wants to go against a big player is might just have a skeleton in their closet ready to be exposed, even if it's just an innocuous fukking business transaction that was mischaracterized. Its kinda disturbing.
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post 1680206293 04-05-2023, 06:26 AM
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Legal theory from libs is "Oh year these 34 felonies, they are just the appetizer. They are going to list bigger crimes later!"


Literally not how it works.
post 1680206373 04-05-2023, 06:28 AM
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Yeah NY really chit the bed on this one
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post 1680206553 04-05-2023, 06:34 AM
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The other thing is, the NY Times is trying to say that Bragg doesn't even have to charge Trump with an underlying crime, or even prove he committed it. He just needs show intent. That really doesn't his bolster his case so much though. The fact is more serious charges are usually accompanied with falsified business expenses to make it a felony.

Falsifying Business Records in the First Degree occurs when you violate any of the four subsections of the lesser misdemeanor offense and an Assistant District Attorney can prove beyond a reasonable doubt additional elements. Coupling to the crime of New York Penal Law 175.05, prosecutors must establish that your intent to defraud involved further criminal intent to either hide the commission of another crime or to assist in the commission of that other crime.Because of this additional offense requirement, it is routine practice for prosecutors to charge potentially more serious transgressions alongside a Penal Law 175.10 case at the time of arrest or when the matter is presented to a Grand Jury.
post 1680206643 04-05-2023, 06:36 AM
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I found this a pretty good explanation of the charges / law

starting at 2:31


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post 1680208013 04-05-2023, 07:08 AM
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everything indicates that Bragg is trying to use election campaign finance violation as the underlying charge. There's the federal crime relating to campaign finance violation, but NY State also has its own election laws too. The issue is that Bragg has no jurisdiction to bring a federal crime in state court, and NY State laws concerning campaign finance may not apply to a federal election

The other issue, which doesn't get talked about often, is the "intent to defraud" language. To "defraud" means Trump had to take something or deprive someone of something. Is Bragg arguing that Trump deprived the voters of knowledge about the affairs? it's a stretch
post 1680208183 04-05-2023, 07:12 AM
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FYI OP:

N.Y. Elec. Law § 17-152is a state crime, not a federal crime. It's a law only in New York's books ... there is an argument that NY election laws can apply only to NY elections at the local / state level. Trump, obviously, ran for office at the federal level, so the federal election laws govern his conduct in the election


https://casetext.com/statute/consoli...event-election
post 1680208903 04-05-2023, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted By DanteEdmond
FYI OP:

N.Y. Elec. Law § 17-152is a state crime, not a federal crime. It's a law only in New York's books ... there is an argument that NY election laws can apply only to NY elections at the local / state level. Trump, obviously, ran for office at the federal level, so the federal election laws govern his conduct in the election


https://casetext.com/statute/consoli...event-election
Yep. Well aware it's a state election law. And yeah, it only looks applicable to NYS elections. The fact that he is even trying to go for it is really bizarre.

In post #22 I said it is uncertain whether a federal candidate can be tried in a NY state courtroom (for both state or federal charges).

It also seems obvious that if he goes with federal election law, he will be out of his jurisdiction.
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