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Forum » Who/What created the universe? Infinite regression?
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Thread: Who/What created the universe? Infinite regression?

post 1689236353 08-30-2023, 05:07 PM
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Who/What created the universe? Infinite regression?

If you assume infinitely going back (the universe came from something which came from something going on forever), then is it possible to be in the present if you go back forever?

Discuss
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post 1689236433 08-30-2023, 05:08 PM
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Humans talking about this kind of stuff is like ants trying to figure out how to build a car and throwing out all their ideas thinking they know what theyre talking about lol, i could be wrong though.
post 1689236893 08-30-2023, 05:19 PM
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I don’t know.


I might not be right though.
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post 1689237073 08-30-2023, 05:23 PM
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The uncaused cause.

What created the Universe? the Big Bang

What exploded? The primodrial atom

Where did that come from? etc.
post 1689237273 08-30-2023, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted By BigTimeOperator⏩
The uncaused cause.

What created the Universe? the Big Bang

What exploded? The primodrial atom

Where did that come from? etc.
Umm…

Aktchually, The Big Bang has nothing to do with the creation of the universe. It strictly deals with the rapid expansion of the universe which began milliseconds afterwards and is still taking place today.
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post 1689237383 08-30-2023, 05:31 PM
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Impossible to know with current physics. We can't even probe the planck epoch without a quantum theory of gravity.

We do know that the classical definition of spacetime is past finite. The math of geodesics for example tell us that, an inflationary universe (with some general caveats and parameters) has to have a spacetime boundary in the past and cannot extend infinitely.

What existed "before" that? Was there something there, perhaps eternally in some kind of quantum state, which we just can't yet understand with our limited physics? Or did absolutely everything truly begin at t=0 just prior to the Big Bang?

Of course if you just assume a creator, it runs into a whole bunch of absurdities. Eg. how does any creator, even an omnipotent one, operate outside of the parameter of time? For said creator to even will a universe into existence and bring about an effect (creation of spacetime) from a cause, there has to be the passage of some time. But how can this happen prior to the existence of spacetime?

We may know these things, we may never. But probably not in our lifetime.
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post 1689237573 08-30-2023, 05:34 PM
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We are not meant to know. We are not capable of it. We are like videogame characters trying to figure out whats going on in the real world. Hell 99% of people dont even bother asking themselves these questions, they cant even fathom even being something else out there or something that is impossible to explain existing.


edit: lol at the bing bang explanation. Grade 3 physics trying to explain the oldest most asked most complex question in the universe's history by humankind
"The flowers bloom, then wither... The stars shine and one day become extinct. This earth, the sun, the galaxies and even the big universe, someday will be destroyed. Compared with that, the human life is only a blink, just a little time. In that short time - people are born, laugh, cry, fight, are injured, feel joy, sadness, hate someone, love someone. All in just a moment. And then, are embraced by the eternal sleep called death."
post 1689237623 08-30-2023, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted By Getter_done⏩
Humans talking about this kind of stuff is like ants trying to figure out how to build a car and throwing out all their ideas thinking they know what theyre talking about lol, i could be wrong though.
Damn
post 1689237653 08-30-2023, 05:35 PM
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Katy and Ron made love. the Universe was born

that's my best guess, which is equally plausible to yours
post 1689237663 08-30-2023, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted By isingmodel⏩
Impossible to know with current physics. We can't even probe the planck epoch without a quantum theory of gravity.

We do know that the classical definition of spacetime is past finite. The math of geodesics for example tell us that, an inflationary universe (with some general caveats and parameters) has to have a spacetime boundary in the past and cannot extend infinitely.

What existed "before" that? Was there something there, perhaps eternally in some kind of quantum state, which we just can't yet understand with our limited physics? Or did absolutely everything truly begin at t=0 just prior to the Big Bang?

Of course if you just assume a creator, it runs into a whole bunch of absurdities. Eg. how does any creator, even an omnipotent one, operate outside of the parameter of time? For said creator to even will a universe into existence and bring about an effect (creation of spacetime) from a cause, there has to be the passage of some time. But how can this happen prior to the existence of spacetime?

We may know these things, we may never. But probably not in our lifetime.
Yeah, even the boldest theories still have huge holes. We live in a simulation, created by whom? And who created them? Is it an infinite loop? **** like this is just impossible to even begin understanding.
"The flowers bloom, then wither... The stars shine and one day become extinct. This earth, the sun, the galaxies and even the big universe, someday will be destroyed. Compared with that, the human life is only a blink, just a little time. In that short time - people are born, laugh, cry, fight, are injured, feel joy, sadness, hate someone, love someone. All in just a moment. And then, are embraced by the eternal sleep called death."
post 1689237763 08-30-2023, 05:37 PM
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The one thing I don't fully grasp yet is the concept of time, or how time started with space. I have to imagine that time existed before the BB. There was no expansion and then there was expansion. How can their not be "time" before the big bang expansion? I thought I've read some try to make the argument that time didn't even exist before the BB which doesn't make sense to me, but if true, might be the answer.


Assuming their is time before the BB, then yes I'd say it goes on forever. If time doesn't have a beginning, then it never has an end... right? If we assume things have just been going on for an infinite amount of time, endless, I'd say it's ridiculous to think it could end.


If there's no beginning and no end, then... I don't know. It gets complex. I do think we can understand it, I think our minds are capable of understanding things (I don't like the ants analogy) I just don't think we have the answers.
post 1689237863 08-30-2023, 05:39 PM
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I consider myself to be very religious and I believe that while our God is our one and only God there are many Gods. Our God had a God and he had a God and so on as part of an eternal progression. I don’t think any religion has a solid answer of how everything started other than the universe has always just existed.
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post 1689237963 08-30-2023, 05:41 PM
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Here is the Christian point of view that everyne is interested in:

https://www.gotquestions.org/big-bang-theory.html
post 1689238023 08-30-2023, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted By Ken-O⏩
Yeah, even the boldest theories still have huge holes. We live in a simulation, created by whom? And who created them? Is it an infinite loop? **** like this is just impossible to even begin understanding.
You could run with this idea.

You're in a simulation.

Why would you be in a simulation? Because this stage of history, life has meaning. You can die, lose people, etc. This is a story, it's a long story but a valuable one, just like watching a long movie. If you could live a million years and don't have the risk of death, you might just place yourself in a meaningful 80 year story, wake up and share it with people close to you (who could also be in your simulation), and decide to do it again one day. You'd wake up in a peaceful area where basic needs are met, you can do anything, can't die, etc. Technology will get humans there within a thousand years or so, so it's not a while thought. Maybe that's "heaven", I mean, you could draw some similarities, you're with your loved ones again, it's peaceful, needs are met, etc.



Anyway, in the "real" world maybe physics make a lot more sense. The "big bang" could just be an explanation we're given in the simulation, maybe physics make much more sense in the real world. After all, you're not a physicist right now, how do you know anything? Maybe the weird complex questions only exist in our simulation experience.


If that were true, you'd still run into the primary question though, how did anything begin? How did something come from nothing?
post 1689238033 08-30-2023, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted By 3fifty⏩
The one thing I don't fully grasp yet is the concept of time, or how time started with space. I have to imagine that time existed before the BB. There was no expansion and then there was expansion. How can their not be "time" before the big bang expansion? I thought I've read some try to make the argument that time didn't even exist before the BB which doesn't make sense to me, but if true, might be the answer.


Assuming their is time before the BB, then yes I'd say it goes on forever. If time doesn't have a beginning, then it never has an end... right? If we assume things have just been going on for an infinite amount of time, endless, I'd say it's ridiculous to think it could end.


If there's no beginning and no end, then... I don't know. It gets complex. I do think we can understand it, I think our minds are capable of understanding things (I don't like the ants analogy) I just don't think we have the answers.
With space is the same ****. What is the universe expanding into? When a balloon expands, it takes space that was occupied previously by air. When the universe expands, what is it expanding towards? What was in the space that was there before the universe expanded into it? Whats BEYOND the universe, cant be nothing right, or how would the universe expand towards nothingness



Nothing makes fukin sense. We are just living in a very complex and highly advanced simulation. I think our current humanity will be able to simulate similar universes in a few centuries, almost down to a T. See how much we progressed going from NES 1D games to the crazy 3d worlds we have nowadays, only in 3 decades. What wiill be able to achieve/simulate in 3 centuries? What about a thousand years?


We just gonna simulate a new humanity.
"The flowers bloom, then wither... The stars shine and one day become extinct. This earth, the sun, the galaxies and even the big universe, someday will be destroyed. Compared with that, the human life is only a blink, just a little time. In that short time - people are born, laugh, cry, fight, are injured, feel joy, sadness, hate someone, love someone. All in just a moment. And then, are embraced by the eternal sleep called death."
post 1689238193 08-30-2023, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted By dingler⏩
I consider myself to be very religious and I believe that while our God is our one and only God there are many Gods. Our God had a God and he had a God and so on as part of an eternal progression. I don’t think any religion has a solid answer of how everything started other than the universe has always just existed.
Depends your definition of God but mainstream Christians would call your belief heresy.
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
post 1689238253 08-30-2023, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted By 3fifty⏩
You could run with this idea.

You're in a simulation.

Why would you be in a simulation? Because this stage of history, life has meaning. You can die, lose people, etc. This is a story, it's a long story but a valuable one, just like watching a long movie. If you could live a million years and don't have the risk of death, you might just place yourself in a meaningful 80 year story, wake up and share it with people close to you (who could also be in your simulation), and decide to do it again one day. You'd wake up in a peaceful area where basic needs are met, you can do anything, can't die, etc. Technology will get humans there within a thousand years or so, so it's not a while thought. Maybe that's "heaven", I mean, you could draw some similarities, you're with your loved ones again, it's peaceful, needs are met, etc.



Anyway, in the "real" world maybe physics make a lot more sense. The "big bang" could just be an explanation we're given in the simulation, maybe physics make much more sense in the real world. After all, you're not a physicist right now, how do you know anything? Maybe the weird complex questions only exist in our simulation experience.


If that were true, you'd still run into the primary question though, how did anything begin? How did something come from nothing?
Cool theory. Ive been thinking about the same theory for some time now. And yeah, still we end up with the same questions, which brings me again to my argument that simply we are not currently programmed to understand these questions, aka infinity. We know what it is, but we cant understand it, we dont have that code yet, perhaps we arent supposed to.

Its like a calculator, you cant use it to play you Beethoven's 9th symphony, its not programmed for that, not even close. Well maybe humans arent programmed to understand or explain the origin of the universe and beyond.

Perhaps when we wake up or this simulation ends and we go back to being whatever we are aka the real world, perhaps there these beings are actually capable of understanding it and are simply living in a whole different reality. Again, in comparison, we could be like just NES videogames compared to whatever is beyond, that are actually playing in PS5 power.
"The flowers bloom, then wither... The stars shine and one day become extinct. This earth, the sun, the galaxies and even the big universe, someday will be destroyed. Compared with that, the human life is only a blink, just a little time. In that short time - people are born, laugh, cry, fight, are injured, feel joy, sadness, hate someone, love someone. All in just a moment. And then, are embraced by the eternal sleep called death."
post 1689238313 08-30-2023, 05:48 PM
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No one knows.

Pretty sure I’m right.
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post 1689238333 08-30-2023, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted By Ken-O⏩
With space is the same ****. What is the universe expanding into? When a balloon expands, it takes space that was occupied previously by air. When the universe expands, what is it expanding towards? What was in the space that was there before the universe expanded into it? Whats BEYOND the universe, cant be nothing right, or how would the universe expand towards nothingness



Nothing makes fukin sense. We are just living in a very complex and highly advanced simulation. I think our current humanity will be able to simulate similar universes in a few centuries, almost down to a T. See how much we progressed going from NES 1D games to the crazy 3d worlds we have nowadays, only in 3 decades. What wiill be able to achieve/simulate in 3 centuries? What about a thousand years?


We just gonna simulate a new humanity.
Think of an infinitely large sheet of graph paper that extends in all directions forever. Now draw a couple of dots on a couple of the lines of the graph paper. Now imagine that the squares of the graph paper getting larger and larger, and how the two dots would move apart.

That's the best way to think of it. It isn't expanding "into" anything because that is nonsensical with respect to the question, but the distance between every single object in the universe and every other object in the universe is getting larger.

It's overly defeatist to say we will never know these things. The amount we already know about the universe is truly staggering considering we are just monkeys with self awareness.
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post 1689238483 08-30-2023, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
Depends your definition of God but mainstream Christians would call your belief heresy.
It makes sense when you think about it. In order for our God to become a god he had to start basically where we are then work his way to where he is now. If our God wants us to be like him then he would give us the same road map he had to be able to get to where he is.

It only doesn’t make sense if you believe that some super being just came from nowhere, knew everything there is to know and started running chit.
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post 1689238593 08-30-2023, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted By Ken-O⏩
With space is the same ****. What is the universe expanding into? When a balloon expands, it takes space that was occupied previously by air. When the universe expands, what is it expanding towards? What was in the space that was there before the universe expanded into it? Whats BEYOND the universe, cant be nothing right, or how would the universe expand towards nothingness



Nothing makes fukin sense. We are just living in a very complex and highly advanced simulation. I think our current humanity will be able to simulate similar universes in a few centuries, almost down to a T. See how much we progressed going from NES 1D games to the crazy 3d worlds we have nowadays, only in 3 decades. What wiill be able to achieve/simulate in 3 centuries? What about a thousand years?


We just gonna simulate a new humanity.
I actually have an answer on this one. Funny my family is Catholic but even they are changing now that we understand science better. Anyway, I love this stuff and I've researched this.


It's a misconception that the big bang happened from one point and expanded, like a firecracker. From what I've been reading, it sounds like the universe (our planets, stars, galaxies) may exist everywhere, as in there is no edge. It may truly be infinitely wide. The expansion happened, but everything may simply be moving further away from itself, but it's still infinite. That's a weird thought but that helped me get beyond the idea of an expanding balloon.


According to my research & asking GPT about this stuff, watching astronomers, this is the most likely scenario. We have no evidence suggesting there's an edge or stop to all the galaxies. Sure, we can only see about 45 billion light years across (or something.. think 13 + 13 in each direction plus time and expansion), but we've basically confirmed that galaxies and all that go beyond what we can see. We're only limited by time and how fast light travels, so we don't technically goes beyond that distance, but evidence shows that it's just more galaxies forever.


Ithinksomething can expand and still be infinite. Think of an infinitely big sponge that was somehow still expanding outwards.


If we reach the singularity (computers outsmarting humans) you're right, that might tell us a lot.
post 1689238733 08-30-2023, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted By dingler⏩
It makes sense when you think about it. In order for our God to become a god he had to start basically where we are then work his way to where he is now. If our God wants us to be like him then he would give us the same road map he had to be able to get to where he is.

It only doesn’t make sense if you believe that some super being just came from nowhere, knew everything there is to know and started running chit.
Again, dunno what Bible you've read lol but that isn't what Christians say
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
post 1689238753 08-30-2023, 05:55 PM
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These are the kind of thoughts/ideas meant for a large dose of portobellos
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post 1689238963 08-30-2023, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted By Ken-O⏩
Cool theory. Ive been thinking about the same theory for some time now. And yeah, still we end up with the same questions, which brings me again to my argument that simply we are not currently programmed to understand these questions, aka infinity. We know what it is, but we cant understand it, we dont have that code yet, perhaps we arent supposed to.

Its like a calculator, you cant use it to play you Beethoven's 9th symphony, its not programmed for that, not even close. Well maybe humans aren't programmed to understand or explain the origin of the universe and beyond.

Perhaps when we wake up or this simulation ends and we go back to being whatever we are aka the real world, perhaps there these beings are actually capable of understanding it and are simply living in a whole different reality. Again, in comparison, we could be like just NES videogames compared to whatever is beyond, that are actually playing in PS5 power.
Part of me wonders if the universe is just on a forever repeat cycle, it expands and then collapses, repeat over and over. With technology we could figure out how to live forever, or even slow down the perception of time, so the "collapse" thing doesn't really make me concerned for intelligent life all that much, but maybe this is one idea of what's happening.


Still though... how did the first one come about? I'm not sure. Again some people suggest that time didn't exist before the big bang, I still don't understand how that's possible.
post 1689239173 08-30-2023, 05:59 PM
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God did
post 1689239323 08-30-2023, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted By isingmodel⏩
Think of an infinitely large sheet of graph paper that extends in all directions forever. Now draw a couple of dots on a couple of the lines of the graph paper. Now imagine that the squares of the graph paper getting larger and larger, and how the two dots would move apart.

That's the best way to think of it. It isn't expanding "into" anything because that is nonsensical with respect to the question, but the distance between every single object in the universe and every other object in the universe is getting larger.

It's overly defeatist to say we will never know these things. The amount we already know about the universe is truly staggering considering we are just monkeys with self awareness.
Originally Posted By 3fifty⏩
I actually have an answer on this one. Funny my family is Catholic but even they are changing now that we understand science better. Anyway, I love this stuff and I've researched this.


It's a misconception that the big bang happened from one point and expanded, like a firecracker. From what I've been reading, it sounds like the universe (our planets, stars, galaxies) may exist everywhere, as in there is no edge. It may truly be infinitely wide. The expansion happened, but everything may simply be moving further away from itself, but it's still infinite. That's a weird thought but that helped me get beyond the idea of an expanding balloon.


According to my research & asking GPT about this stuff, watching astronomers, this is the most likely scenario. We have no evidence suggesting there's an edge or stop to all the galaxies. Sure, we can only see about 45 billion light years across (or something.. think 13 + 13 in each direction plus time and expansion), but we've basically confirmed that galaxies and all that go beyond what we can see. We're only limited by time and how fast light travels, so we don't technically goes beyond that distance, but evidence shows that it's just more galaxies forever.


Ithinksomething can expand and still be infinite. Think of an infinitely big sponge that was somehow still expanding outwards.


If we reach the singularity (computers outsmarting humans) you're right, that might tell us a lot.
I mean, at the end of the day its still both infinite and expanding at the same time. That makes no sense lol. The universe is basically it, theres no beyond, theres no before or after. I dont see how we can even come close to explaining that one.
"The flowers bloom, then wither... The stars shine and one day become extinct. This earth, the sun, the galaxies and even the big universe, someday will be destroyed. Compared with that, the human life is only a blink, just a little time. In that short time - people are born, laugh, cry, fight, are injured, feel joy, sadness, hate someone, love someone. All in just a moment. And then, are embraced by the eternal sleep called death."
post 1689239623 08-30-2023, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted By Ken-O⏩
I mean, at the end of the day its still both infinite and expanding at the same time. That makes no sense lol. The universe is basically it, theres no beyond, theres no before or after. I dont see how we can even come close to explaining that one.
I THINK I grasp the infinite but expanding one.


The beginning/end one I don't yet, but I think I get the expanding thing. Just picture a sponge filling up with water, it's getting bigger, now picture it but the sponge never ends. Things can still move apart from each other without having a border/end to them. Or just picture a bunch of dots, infinite, like a 3d view thingy, and all the dots are separating. However, if you sped up and kept looking off into the distance, it never ends. That part I think makes sense, even though the idea of infinite is wild.

The time one is more mysterious to me at the moment.
post 1689239683 08-30-2023, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted By 3fifty⏩
Part of me wonders if the universe is just on a forever repeat cycle, it expands and then collapses, repeat over and over. With technology we could figure out how to live forever, or even slow down the perception of time, so the "collapse" thing doesn't really make me concerned for intelligent life all that much, but maybe this is one idea of what's happening.


Still though... how did the first one come about? I'm not sure. Again some people suggest that time didn't exist before the big bang, I still don't understand how that's possible.
Thats Nietzche's Eternal recurrence. I love that theory. Basically we would be doomed or blessed depending on how you see it to relive our same lives exactly the same to every little detail for an infinite number of times. We gonna be having this discussiong an infinite numbers of times after this and we have already had this discussion an infinite number of times before.






Basically this but with the entire universe, every particle and atom in the universe. Eventually we end up exactly the same, after all we are just matter. This is where things start getting philosophical, do human beings have free will or not? If we did have free will we would not be able to repeat the same cycle infinite number of times because we would make different choices every life. Personally i dont think humans have free will, we make decisions solely based on enviroment, past experiences and how our brains process information. I think if you or i would be born again under the exact same circumstances, our lives would go exactly the same, to every little minuscule detail and to every microsecond.
"The flowers bloom, then wither... The stars shine and one day become extinct. This earth, the sun, the galaxies and even the big universe, someday will be destroyed. Compared with that, the human life is only a blink, just a little time. In that short time - people are born, laugh, cry, fight, are injured, feel joy, sadness, hate someone, love someone. All in just a moment. And then, are embraced by the eternal sleep called death."
post 1689239983 08-30-2023, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted By Ken-O⏩
Thats Nietzche's Eternal recurrence. I love that theory. Basically we would be doomed or blessed depending on how you see it to relive our same lives exactly the same to every little detail for an infinite number of times. We gonna be having this discussiong an infinite numbers of times after this and we have already had this discussion an infinite number of times before.






Basically this but with the entire universe, every particle and atom in the universe. Eventually we end up exactly the same, after all we are just matter. This is where things start getting philosophical, do human beings have free will or not? If we did have free will we would not be able to repeat the same cycle infinite number of times because we would make different choices every life. Personally i dont think humans have free will, we make decisions solely based on enviroment, past experiences and how our brains process information. I think if you or i would be born again under the exact same circumstances, our lives would go exactly the same, to every little minuscule detail and to every microsecond.
I'm guessing we do have choice. Apparently the many worlds theory has some weight to it - supposedly we still don't understand why particles behave different when observed. I thought we would have figured that out, but doesn't sound like we have. One possibility (a wild, but leading idea) of how this is, is that upon observation, we "lock" into one of the possibilities. This would suggest that all possibilities happen, there's a possibility where you stop miscing right now, and a universe has that option being lived out. Another one where you sneeze, another one where a plane crashes into your house right now, etc.

I'd bet we do have choice. The time thing doesn't concern me or make me feel doomed, again, with the way technology is going I wouldn't be surprised if conscious beings find a way to live a billion years plus slow down or pause time perception, so no shortage of time. Long enough, at least.
post 1689240583 08-30-2023, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted By 3fifty⏩
I'm guessing we do have choice. Apparently the many worlds theory has some weight to it - supposedly we still don't understand why particles behave different when observed. I thought we would have figured that out, but doesn't sound like we have. One possibility (a wild, but leading idea) of how this is, is that upon observation, we "lock" into one of the possibilities. This would suggest that all possibilities happen, there's a possibility where you stop miscing right now, and a universe has that option being lived out. Another one where you sneeze, another one where a plane crashes into your house right now, etc.

I'd bet we do have choice. The time thing doesn't concern me or make me feel doomed, again, with the way technology is going I wouldn't be surprised if conscious beings find a way to live a billion years plus slow down or pause time perception, so no shortage of time. Long enough, at least.
lol this is some insane tripping stuff. Enough for today srs, brb lifting and eating like a good npc
"The flowers bloom, then wither... The stars shine and one day become extinct. This earth, the sun, the galaxies and even the big universe, someday will be destroyed. Compared with that, the human life is only a blink, just a little time. In that short time - people are born, laugh, cry, fight, are injured, feel joy, sadness, hate someone, love someone. All in just a moment. And then, are embraced by the eternal sleep called death."
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