02-27-2024, 11:10 AM
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#1
- TugOfPeace
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Job offer.. bit of an odd response
Interviewed at a small place (<20 people) last week, video call. Whole interview was just an hour of them basically selling me the company.
Fully remote, I asked for $195k.
I sent them a thank you note shortly after the interview, and today the recruiter reached out.
He said that they were ok with the salary, and that they were really interested in getting me on board. Said that they were about to put together an offer last week but after looking at their book of business, wanted to make sure that they had enough work for me to really make an impact. The founder said on the call that they like to make sure they have enough work before hiring people so it's a bit odd that now they're needing to wait.
So in the end he's telling me they want to wait 30-60 days before extending an offer. To me this sounds more like they are shopping around for someone cheaper. Any thoughts?
I'm already fully remote making enough to keep me happy so I'm not worried, but just curious.
Fully remote, I asked for $195k.
I sent them a thank you note shortly after the interview, and today the recruiter reached out.
He said that they were ok with the salary, and that they were really interested in getting me on board. Said that they were about to put together an offer last week but after looking at their book of business, wanted to make sure that they had enough work for me to really make an impact. The founder said on the call that they like to make sure they have enough work before hiring people so it's a bit odd that now they're needing to wait.
So in the end he's telling me they want to wait 30-60 days before extending an offer. To me this sounds more like they are shopping around for someone cheaper. Any thoughts?
I'm already fully remote making enough to keep me happy so I'm not worried, but just curious.
Monster0ultra self proclaimed "Chad" face pic looks like vtech school shooter: https://i.imgur.com/z2m6Why.jpg
02-27-2024, 11:18 AM
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#2
- Mountaineer92
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yep def wanna see if they can get someone cheaper. you named your price and stuck to your guns, awesome. they were trying to bait you into taking less tbh.
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02-27-2024, 11:21 AM
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#3
02-27-2024, 11:22 AM
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#4
- pondus_levo
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What's the job title?
I find it really hard to believe that a company that small can afford that kind of salary.
I find it really hard to believe that a company that small can afford that kind of salary.
Forever alone? Attraction and keeping the girl chasing you - http://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=131498033
You will never know your limits, unless you push yourself past the imaginary lines you have drawn in the sand.
Knee Dragger - '06 GSX-R750
02-27-2024, 11:22 AM
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#5
- 6gorillion
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Is this another one of those jobs where you'll be doing nothing too?
02-27-2024, 11:23 AM
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#6
- Ironmanlet
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If you don’t have an offer, you don’t have an offer.
That is the end of the story.
They can say whatever words they want, it doesn’t matter what you think their intentions are. The only thing that matters is you do not have an offer.
You need to keep shopping.
Don’t let them dictate your life because of some imaginary hypothetical situation you think you are going to get. You could miss other opportunities for nothing.
That is the end of the story.
They can say whatever words they want, it doesn’t matter what you think their intentions are. The only thing that matters is you do not have an offer.
You need to keep shopping.
Don’t let them dictate your life because of some imaginary hypothetical situation you think you are going to get. You could miss other opportunities for nothing.
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02-27-2024, 11:24 AM
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#7
- TugOfPeace
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Originally Posted By pondus_levo⏩
Project Manager; but in reality it's an engineering role where I'm doing engineering work and managing other engineers. It struck me as more of an engineering manager / director level role that they were trying to downplay in order to pay less. They said that some of their engineers were working 12-16 hour days on occasion as well.What's the job title?
I find it really hard to believe that a company that small can afford that kind of salary.
I find it really hard to believe that a company that small can afford that kind of salary.
Originally Posted By Ironmanlet⏩
Yea, it's not an offer and I'm not seeing it as one. I'm not even shopping around, I just bite whenever a recruiter tells me a salary range I'd be interested in, and if the job is local or fully remote.If you don’t have an offer, you don’t have an offer.
That is the end of the story.
They can say whatever words they want, it doesn’t matter what you think their intentions are. The only thing that matters is you do not have an offer.
You need to keep shopping.
That is the end of the story.
They can say whatever words they want, it doesn’t matter what you think their intentions are. The only thing that matters is you do not have an offer.
You need to keep shopping.
Monster0ultra self proclaimed "Chad" face pic looks like vtech school shooter: https://i.imgur.com/z2m6Why.jpg
02-27-2024, 11:30 AM
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#8
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Originally Posted By 6gorillion⏩
Lmao.Is this another one of those jobs where you'll be doing nothing too?
It's 2024, the work from home thing has been blown wide open, but somehow it still exists.
Still can't name one WFHcel who logs more than 5 hours of actual "work" per week.
02-27-2024, 11:32 AM
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#9
- pondus_levo
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Originally Posted By TugOfPeace⏩
Well, I don't know the industry or location, but that seems high, even for a management role. That's executive level pay in 99% of businesses, even in California.Project Manager; but in reality it's an engineering role where I'm doing engineering work and managing other engineers. It struck me as more of an engineering manager / director level role that they were trying to downplay in order to pay less. They said that some of their engineers were working 12-16 hour days on occasion as well.
Forever alone? Attraction and keeping the girl chasing you - http://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=131498033
You will never know your limits, unless you push yourself past the imaginary lines you have drawn in the sand.
Knee Dragger - '06 GSX-R750
02-27-2024, 11:34 AM
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#10
They are definitely shopping around. Keep looking. Maybe they’ll call and maybe they won’t. Best case scenario is that you get another job with the requirements you want, and if the 1st company calls, tell them to pay you more than the places you presently work for.
02-27-2024, 11:38 AM
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#11
- TugOfPeace
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Originally Posted By 6gorilion
Nah this one is legit. Granted they don't micromanage so I will have full autonomy of how I want to do things, but it's going to be a tougher job.Is this another one of those jobs where you'll be doing nothing too?
Originally Posted By HMFIC_BROWSIN⏩
Most weeks I'm doing 5-15 hours I'd say.Lmao.
It's 2024, the work from home thing has been blown wide open, but somehow it still exists.
Still can't name one WFHcel who logs more than 5 hours of actual "work" per week.
It's 2024, the work from home thing has been blown wide open, but somehow it still exists.
Still can't name one WFHcel who logs more than 5 hours of actual "work" per week.
Originally Posted By pondus_levo⏩
Location is in the south. What do you mean by executive? CEO/CFO/COO/CPO etc?Well, I don't know the industry or location, but that seems high, even for a management role. That's executive level pay in 99% of businesses, even in California.
My plan was to keep both jobs and take my compensation to $350k lol
Monster0ultra self proclaimed "Chad" face pic looks like vtech school shooter: https://i.imgur.com/z2m6Why.jpg
02-27-2024, 11:46 AM
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#12
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Originally Posted By TugOfPeace⏩
Alpha AF.My plan was to keep both jobs and take my compensation to $350k lol
02-27-2024, 11:48 AM
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#13
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If they are in a position where they need to make sure they have enough work, then I would not take the job.
That's like them admitting their company is not stable.
They probably just want to see if they can get someone cheaper, but that also is a red light that they would be looking to get rid of you as soon as they can.
That's like them admitting their company is not stable.
They probably just want to see if they can get someone cheaper, but that also is a red light that they would be looking to get rid of you as soon as they can.
02-27-2024, 11:50 AM
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#14
- TugOfPeace
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Originally Posted By SmithMachineGuy⏩
I think more than likely they're shopping around.If they are in a position where they need to make sure they have enough work, then I would not take the job.
That's like them admitting their company is not stable.
They probably just want to see if they can get someone cheaper, but that also is a red light that they would be looking to get rid of you as soon as they can.
That's like them admitting their company is not stable.
They probably just want to see if they can get someone cheaper, but that also is a red light that they would be looking to get rid of you as soon as they can.
As to your comment about company stability; this is actually not true. I know the founder of a similar company that had 10 people; he was in conversations with me for probably 4 months before he could invite me to an interview, and he said the exact same thing, that they like to have the revenue in front of them before they can commit to hiring someone. It's legit, with small companies they can't afford to hire people and not have the work. Whether that's true in this case though, can't say.
Monster0ultra self proclaimed "Chad" face pic looks like vtech school shooter: https://i.imgur.com/z2m6Why.jpg
02-27-2024, 11:54 AM
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#15
02-27-2024, 12:32 PM
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#16
- ProudKraut
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Wot? 200k salery for a PM job?
In my world PMs are outsourced to India or the Philippines, becuase it's a bottom of the barrel kinda job. Basically maintaining excel sheets and following up with other Indians to make sure they do their stuff.
Also what kind of 20 people shop makes that kind of cash? Lets get together with 18 other miscers and open our own.
In my world PMs are outsourced to India or the Philippines, becuase it's a bottom of the barrel kinda job. Basically maintaining excel sheets and following up with other Indians to make sure they do their stuff.
Also what kind of 20 people shop makes that kind of cash? Lets get together with 18 other miscers and open our own.
02-27-2024, 01:03 PM
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#17
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Originally Posted By ProudKraut⏩
It's not really a PM job. That's just the title. It's more of an engineering manager position.Wot? 200k salery for a PM job?
In my world PMs are outsourced to India or the Philippines, becuase it's a bottom of the barrel kinda job. Basically maintaining excel sheets and following up with other Indians to make sure they do their stuff.
Also what kind of 20 people shop makes that kind of cash? Lets get together with 18 other miscers and open our own.
In my world PMs are outsourced to India or the Philippines, becuase it's a bottom of the barrel kinda job. Basically maintaining excel sheets and following up with other Indians to make sure they do their stuff.
Also what kind of 20 people shop makes that kind of cash? Lets get together with 18 other miscers and open our own.
Monster0ultra self proclaimed "Chad" face pic looks like vtech school shooter: https://i.imgur.com/z2m6Why.jpg
02-27-2024, 01:12 PM
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#18
02-27-2024, 01:15 PM
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#19
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Originally Posted By AWSbruh⏩
It's an engineering manager role. There is very little actual PM work.200k for a PM role in 2024. I call cap, even program managers don’t make that
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02-27-2024, 01:19 PM
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#20
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Originally Posted By TugOfPeace⏩
Yet they’re not calling it an engineering manager because they want to get cheaper talent. If they wanted to call it a manager role they would just pay the 200k. They’re keeping you on the back burnerIt's an engineering manager role. There is very little actual PM work.
02-27-2024, 01:20 PM
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#21
- 6gorillion
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Originally Posted By AWSbruh⏩
Especially at a <20 person company. wtf.200k for a PM role in 2024. I call cap, even program managers don’t make that
02-27-2024, 01:25 PM
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#22
02-27-2024, 01:27 PM
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#23
- bsmit107
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I interviewed with the largest construction company in my area (Macon, GA) like 2 years ago for a PM position, 200-250 people....fully onsite, managing a few $10-$15M commercial jobs.......and the guys (VP and Director) I interviewed with about chit themselves when I told them what my salary requirement was....which at that time was $115k + a company truck or $1000/month vehicle allowance and a bonus of 20ish%....and I told them that was pretty much a lateral move to get me out of working from home with my current company.
The Director said "son, I don't make that" and said "we typically start PM's out in the $60-$65k range, no allowance but we can get you a truck and you might get a Christmas bonus in the 2-3k range." So I stood up, shook their hands and told them I appreciated their time and walked out.
The Director sent me an email a few days later asking if the company I'm working for was hiring.....I sent him to our company website careers page. lulz. He didn't get a job with the company I work for, but I did see about 2 months later that that construction company was hiring for a Director of Construction. hahah
like 2 months ago my buddy who knows the owner of that company said "John asked me about you the other day and was wondering if you're still looking for a job" I told him "you can tell him I'm open to a conversation...but now I'm going to cost him about $35k more."
All that to say that I highly doubt they are able to pay you what you want or are willing to pay anybody that much in that position. They're definitely still looking for a cheaper candidate. They probably really do like you and would like to have you on their team, but to pay you that much means less on the bottom line for the owner/principal and they ain't gonna do that. They're also not going to outright tell you that they are moving on with other candidates because of what you told them you could bring to the table.....keep you on the line, hope you drop your salary requirement which will open the door to negotiations and they'll try to get you down a bit more and sell you on the "potential of growth" or some chit.
The Director said "son, I don't make that" and said "we typically start PM's out in the $60-$65k range, no allowance but we can get you a truck and you might get a Christmas bonus in the 2-3k range." So I stood up, shook their hands and told them I appreciated their time and walked out.
The Director sent me an email a few days later asking if the company I'm working for was hiring.....I sent him to our company website careers page. lulz. He didn't get a job with the company I work for, but I did see about 2 months later that that construction company was hiring for a Director of Construction. hahah
like 2 months ago my buddy who knows the owner of that company said "John asked me about you the other day and was wondering if you're still looking for a job" I told him "you can tell him I'm open to a conversation...but now I'm going to cost him about $35k more."
All that to say that I highly doubt they are able to pay you what you want or are willing to pay anybody that much in that position. They're definitely still looking for a cheaper candidate. They probably really do like you and would like to have you on their team, but to pay you that much means less on the bottom line for the owner/principal and they ain't gonna do that. They're also not going to outright tell you that they are moving on with other candidates because of what you told them you could bring to the table.....keep you on the line, hope you drop your salary requirement which will open the door to negotiations and they'll try to get you down a bit more and sell you on the "potential of growth" or some chit.
02-27-2024, 01:28 PM
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#24
- Procta
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yeah shopping around for a lower price sounds about it, not a big deal
almost $200k is a ton of money especially for a small biz
almost $200k is a ton of money especially for a small biz
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02-27-2024, 01:30 PM
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#25
- TugOfPeace
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Originally Posted By AWSbruh⏩
I'm surprised so many people here are surprised at the salary. Every time I look on IG or online people are clearing $150k+ with less than five years of experience in the tech field. I'm a 12 year guy at this point. Is $200k that ridiculous for an engineering manager salary? I'm not even in tech, this is OG electrical engineering.Yet they’re not calling it an engineering manager because they want to get cheaper talent. If they wanted to call it a manager role they would just pay the 200k. They’re keeping you on the back burner
Originally Posted By bsmit107⏩
Idk what field that is but it sounds like construction project management. Doesn't surprise me because that sounds like an actual PM job.I interviewed with the largest construction company in my area (Macon, GA) like 2 years ago for a PM position, 200-250 people....fully onsite, managing a few $10-$15M commercial jobs.......and the guys (VP and Director) I interviewed with about chit themselves when I told them what my salary requirement was....which at that time was $115k + a company truck or $1000/month vehicle allowance and a bonus of 20ish%....and I told them that was pretty much a lateral move to get me out of working from home with my current company.
The Director said "son, I don't make that" and said "we typically start PM's out in the $60-$65k range, no allowance but we can get you a truck and you might get a Christmas bonus in the 2-3k range." So I stood up, shook their hands and told them I appreciated their time and walked out.
The Director sent me an email a few days later asking if the company I'm working for was hiring.....I sent him to our company website careers page. lulz. He didn't get a job with the company I work for, but I did see about 2 months later that that construction company was hiring for a Director of Construction. hahah
like 2 months ago my buddy who knows the owner of that company said "John asked me about you the other day and was wondering if you're still looking for a job" I told him "you can tell him I'm open to a conversation...but now I'm going to cost him about $35k more."
The Director said "son, I don't make that" and said "we typically start PM's out in the $60-$65k range, no allowance but we can get you a truck and you might get a Christmas bonus in the 2-3k range." So I stood up, shook their hands and told them I appreciated their time and walked out.
The Director sent me an email a few days later asking if the company I'm working for was hiring.....I sent him to our company website careers page. lulz. He didn't get a job with the company I work for, but I did see about 2 months later that that construction company was hiring for a Director of Construction. hahah
like 2 months ago my buddy who knows the owner of that company said "John asked me about you the other day and was wondering if you're still looking for a job" I told him "you can tell him I'm open to a conversation...but now I'm going to cost him about $35k more."
Originally Posted By AWSbruh⏩
Yet they’re not calling it an engineering manager because they want to get cheaper talent. If they wanted to call it a manager role they would just pay the 200k. They’re keeping you on the back burner
Originally Posted By AWSbruh⏩
These are both great points. It seems like they're playing a game and trying to get someone cheap.Also you need to demand they change your job title. Recruiters won’t read your resumes so once they see PM on it and you apply other manager roles or higher it’s game over
Sounds like shady business ethics at the start, not even sure it's worth working for them. Even during the interview I straight up asked what role is this really, is it more of a managerial role..
Monster0ultra self proclaimed "Chad" face pic looks like vtech school shooter: https://i.imgur.com/z2m6Why.jpg
02-27-2024, 02:02 PM
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#26
- pondus_levo
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Originally Posted By TugOfPeace⏩
I mean Senior Director / VP+Nah this one is legit. Granted they don't micromanage so I will have full autonomy of how I want to do things, but it's going to be a tougher job.
Most weeks I'm doing 5-15 hours I'd say.
Location is in the south. What do you mean by executive? CEO/CFO/COO/CPO etc?
My plan was to keep both jobs and take my compensation to $350k lol
Most weeks I'm doing 5-15 hours I'd say.
Location is in the south. What do you mean by executive? CEO/CFO/COO/CPO etc?
My plan was to keep both jobs and take my compensation to $350k lol
A company that can pay a pm $150k/year for doing 5-15 hours of work a week is not going to be in business long.
It's pretty absurd that you are in a position to think you can hold down two high level jobs with only a few hours a week.
I have a feeling you are going to out of a job soon.
Forever alone? Attraction and keeping the girl chasing you - http://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=131498033
You will never know your limits, unless you push yourself past the imaginary lines you have drawn in the sand.
Knee Dragger - '06 GSX-R750
02-27-2024, 02:21 PM
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#27
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I know exactly what is going on. When an engineering company is that small, winning or losing individual projects has a significant impact on utilisation/resource deployment.
You only make permanent hires for roles where you have work for them 85%+ of the time, as your breakeven is 70% or so, Otherwise, you subcontract in just for the duration that you need somebody.
They were bidding for a bunch of projects and interviewed for a permanent position for a role that they would normally subcontract. This is why it was only a single one hour interview.
They have now lost one or more of the bids they expected to win and don't know whether the numbers make sense for a new permanent hire.
You only make permanent hires for roles where you have work for them 85%+ of the time, as your breakeven is 70% or so, Otherwise, you subcontract in just for the duration that you need somebody.
They were bidding for a bunch of projects and interviewed for a permanent position for a role that they would normally subcontract. This is why it was only a single one hour interview.
They have now lost one or more of the bids they expected to win and don't know whether the numbers make sense for a new permanent hire.
Screw nature; my body will do what I DAMN WELL tell it to do!
The only dangerous thing about an exercise is the person doing it.
They had the technology to rebuild me. They made me better, stronger, faster......
02-27-2024, 02:30 PM
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#28
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Originally Posted By DuracellBunny⏩
That could be possible. Do you think that if I offered to work for them as a consultant to ease some of their workload that they would be interested? Say I offered to work at a much lower rate.I know exactly what is going on. When an engineering company is that small, winning or losing individual projects has a significant impact on utilisation/resource deployment.
You only make permanent hires for roles where you have work for them 85%+ of the time, as your breakeven is 70% or so, Otherwise, you subcontract in just for the duration that you need somebody.
They were bidding for a bunch of projects and interviewed for a permanent position for a role that they would normally subcontract. This is why it was only a single one hour interview.
They have now lost one or more of the bids they expected to win and don't know whether the numbers make sense for a new permanent hire.
You only make permanent hires for roles where you have work for them 85%+ of the time, as your breakeven is 70% or so, Otherwise, you subcontract in just for the duration that you need somebody.
They were bidding for a bunch of projects and interviewed for a permanent position for a role that they would normally subcontract. This is why it was only a single one hour interview.
They have now lost one or more of the bids they expected to win and don't know whether the numbers make sense for a new permanent hire.
However I have to admit, last time I interviewed for a job I got it within one interview. Same thing for the job I have now.
For some reason I've never actually had more than one round of interviews in my field.
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02-27-2024, 02:34 PM
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#29
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You should be invoicing more as a consultant vs working as an employee because you don’t get benefits and other perks, 20% is a good rule of thumb I’ve seen used before
02-27-2024, 02:35 PM
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#30
- TugOfPeace
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- TugOfPeace
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Originally Posted By Destor⏩
I agree, but at $195k my hourly (that the company would charge) would be $281. 20% higher than that is $337..You should be invoicing more as a consultant vs working as an employee because you don’t get benefits and other perks, 20% is a good rule of thumb I’ve seen used before
Principals in my field at the high end generally charge $300/hr so this is simply way too much IMO.
At my last job I think I billed customers 150/hr and that was as an employee..
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