Oh because he falls in line with his party politics that don’t have any material policies that uplift the working class. No calls for increases in the minimum wage, no changes to healthcare, no calls to increase social safety nets, no anti poverty programs, enshrining voting rights, getting money OUT of politics, you know the things that actual Americans deal with. It’s all bootstraps pro business nonsense that at best he can say he was “bringing jobs back”. Even his marquee piece of legislation in the TCJA only put in relief for the middle class until 2025 while the breaks for corps are limitless.

Tbh your second question is kind of poorly worded and I’m not sure exactly what you mean. If you’re asking if the state is out to get him, I’ll ask you to name on what specifically?

Do you think Trump bringing awareness to millions of Americans with regards to the corruption in our Federal government is a selfish act?

Washington as a whole began neglecting the Middle Class years ago, and the Middle Class had no voice outside of whatever Washington forced them to adhere to. Trump came out of the gates swinging and bringing unwanted attention to Washington's misdeeds, which created a mainstream recognition of how bad things really were. Since then, that movement has only grown. Most people who subscribe to MSM propaganda believe MAGA is about worshipping a "racist billionaire" who spray tans, when in actuality MAGA is about raising awareness about who pulls the strings in our society, how they're doing it, why they're doing it, and putting that awareness into action at the local and state levels.

You can imagine that because Washington as a whole is only out to serve itself, and special interests, that it would prefer that MAGA went away. That's why it's leveraged its power and influence to slander the MAGA movement, and crucify anyone that champions it.

Do you think Washington has put unparalleled scrutiny on Trump and abused its power to slander and investigate him?

Maybe give them a good shake?

Not too hard though, don't want to scare them too bigly.

Maybe give them a good shake?

Not too hard though, don't want to spill their colostomy bag.

If you think that is what MAGA stands for, leftists have been doing that since the beginning of time - calling out the rich and powerful as a class for all their misdeeds - including capturing the government to further their own interests. Washington is not serving itself, it is serving capital. Their interests are diametrically opposed to working class interests. The only difference is that left wing policies actually benefit the working class. The right wing doesn't have such solutions, so it depends on a much greater degree of rhetoric to mobilize their base. Something Trump is uniquely capable of doing.

As for Trump himself - as I said, I think he's selling conservatives with fake populism, and using tenets of fascism to do so, whether knowingly or not. If you constantly discredit the MSM as he does, no one will believe them even when they speak the truth. Constantly harping on how there was widespread election fraud with no evidence will cast doubt on every election in the future, no matter how secure we make it. Berating the DOJ as going after political enemies and decrying every charge brought forth onto you as a "witch hunt", no matter how worthy it is of going through the legal process. All of these serve to undermine otherwise legitimate institutions and democracy to justify the necessity to install a glorious leader to fix all of it. The same thing you fear from the left - authoritarianism - is the end state of this - except its okay because he's "your guy".

I much prefer to go with Occam's razor when dealing with Trump. Is it more likely that there is a grand orchestrated conspiracy involving thousands (if not more) people in disparate parts of the government and the media OR OR OR is it more likely that this one guy, Trump,just a f*cking liarand only acting in this own self-interest?

I have the same interest in increasing awareness of common people as to who is pulling strings in society, but I do not agree in who to support to address that.

You are talking about the dems of old. Current dems have increased trust in govt, trust intel agencies, trust the msm, are all for corruption under the guise of “the greater good.” They are not trying to tear down the corrupt institutions, they want more govt and more govt control. No libs called out intel agencies for spying on trump and the Russia collusion nonsense. They have lost all care for civil liberties if it takes out who they perceives be as bad.

If you want fascism, look no further than the current dem party. They are just selling it under the false pretense of being in our best interest. And dems fall for it.

MAGA republicans have financial plans that help all. The establishment reps and dems support Wall Street and globalism.

Don’t mistake the real dem platform for what you think it is.

If you think that is what MAGA stands for, leftists have been doing that since the beginning of time - calling out the rich and powerful as a class for all their misdeeds - including capturing the government to further their own interests. Washington is not serving itself, it is serving capital. Their interests are diametrically opposed to working class interests. The only difference is that left wing policies actually benefit the working class. The right wing doesn't have such solutions, so it depends on a much greater degree of rhetoric to mobilize their base. Something Trump is uniquely capable of doing.

As for Trump himself - as I said, I think he's selling conservatives with fake populism, and using tenets of fascism to do so, whether knowingly or not. If you constantly discredit the MSM as he does, no one will believe them even when they speak the truth. Constantly harping on how there was widespread election fraud with no evidence will cast doubt on every election in the future, no matter how secure we make it. Berating the DOJ as going after political enemies and decrying every charge brought forth onto you as a "witch hunt", no matter how worthy it is of going through the legal process. All of these serve to undermine otherwise legitimate institutions and democracy to justify the necessity to install a glorious leader to fix all of it. The same thing you fear from the left - authoritarianism - is the end state of this - except its okay because he's "your guy".

I much prefer to go with Occam's razor when dealing with Trump. Is it more likely that there is a grand orchestrated conspiracy involving thousands (if not more) people in disparate parts of the government and the media OR OR OR is it more likely that this one guy, Trump,just a f*cking liarand only acting in this own self-interest?

I have the same interest in increasing awareness of common people as to who is pulling strings in society, but I do not agree in who to support to address that.

I did not use the word "democrat" at all in that post. I do not mean the Democrat party when I say "leftists". On a global stage, the Democrat party would be considered a moderate-right party. They fully embrace neoliberalism and have no serious critiques of capitalism. I have nearly the same beef with the Democrat party as I do with the Republicans, it would just be a slightly slower descent into fascism with them.

I would love to know what the financial plans of MAGA republicans are. If it involves gutting social safety nets in favor of tax cuts for the rich or even some meaningless marginal reduction for the middle class, chances are that ain't it chief.

They cannot be saved (srs). They need to be removed from any and all levers of power forcibly, and not by convincing them of the falsity of their idiotic views, but by sheer force.

You can speak to the solutions of your own political affiliation, seemingly MAGA ones.

So let's first be somewhat rational with how we define fascism, it comes in alot of flavors as do most political ideologies, but there are a few common tropes that run through all of them. Certain other tenets such as silencing of opposition are more tools that don't appear in every regime.

- extreme nationalismis the first and foremost tenet, this is pretty clearly MAGA territory. The left wing does not believe in American exceptionalism and actively attacks US imperialism, racist history and exploitative nature of US capitalism, so that's already out for us.
- high exaltation of a single leader- again, quite clearly with Trump, its laughable to think that Joe Biden commands the same loyalty and the actual left is so weak in the US, we have no comparable analogues.
- every fascist regime has beenhierarchical and capitalist- this is the weirdest part to me, because the MAGA movement lobs complaints at Big Tech, Wall Street and Big Pharma because of their "liberal agenda". At the end of the day, if you don't decry the power and intrusion of their influence within government at ALL big business sectors, you're not going to do much to balance out the power between common people and the rich and powerful. Leftists call for more egalitarian societies and have deep critiques of capitalism. I'll talk more about the hierarchy aspect below.

Then there are various sects that glom onto MAGA politics and here is where alot of my concern with the movement rests. I don't think Trump explicitly endorses these people, but some of his rhetoric appeals to them and nonetheless forms a strange coalition that MAGA republicans will need to contend with if/when they move into power to govern. If those of you on the internet have this noble goal of giving back power to the people, I'm not sure that is shared by the majority of adherents, so be aware that the demands of these varying sects are antithetical to a more egalitarian society where all people, not just the select few, are empowered.

- Anti-intellectuals - those that will reject even valid scientific findings preferring instead "common sense" or "feels" or "instincts". While not immune to politics as we've discussed, wholesale rejection of science as an avenue to arrive at objective truth is at the very least suboptimal, if not downright dangerous.
- Racists - denigrating illegal immigrants as an invasion of criminals and anti-BLM rhetoric appeals to this base. Even if you may have valid critiques of these issues, mere exposure will bring racists into the fold, who will inevitably try to divide up power of the common people along racial lines.
- Christofascists - those that believe America is a christian nation and will attempt to get the state to enshrine their beliefs over individual or religious rights - making marriage only between man and woman, banning abortion, banning islamic immigrants etc.
- Social Darwinists - while not necessarily racist, these are staunch supporters of hierarchy based on perceptions of superior culture, intelligence, work-ethic that appeals to conservative voters. By definition, if you're favoring construction of hierarchies, you are at best only interested in promoting the welfare of "select" people at the expense of others.

Because Trump needs these disparate factions because they form a material chunk of his voter base, he needs to at least gesture towards their concerns. In that regard, his version of populism is confined to certain demographics - primarily white, middle class Christian voters - instead of all ordinary people.

I didn't claim it was a problem for Trump or MAGA if MSM loses their credibility, its great for their campaign because it turbocharges what conservatives have been decrying for decades - that the MSM has a very liberal lilt. From a leftist perspective, we have similar criticisms of the media. In our view, the media is more a mouthpiece for capital, ensuring that we stay divided over culture war issues (LGBT rights, abortion etc.) instead of realizing our common enemy (the capital class) and taking actions to curb their power. This is somewhere where our interests align, but we may disagree on what we want to replace it with or how to fix it. The media remains important for keeping an informed populace and as a check on government misdeeds. I'd love to know what Trump would like to replace the MSM with - because from what I've seen of Fox, Newsmax coverage, they use their own spin and rhetoric (arguably even more than liberal sources) that they claim is "truth".

It doesn't matter that scandals are legitimate or not? Well first, I disagree, if we have elected leaders with credible enough evidence to bring indictments, I fully expect the media to cover that. Expecting anything otherwise is ridiculous. Second, would you apply that same charitableness to Republican calls for Joe Biden to be investigated and impeached over his son's dealing with Ukraine? Presidents should not be immune from being held accountable for violating the law. Again this is hypocritical from a party that supposedly upholds the value of "law and order", but apparently not when it is enforced upon their guy. If MAGA republicans depart from the mainstream republicans on this, by all means, elucidate me.

I don't really have anything to engage if you keep vaguely gesturing about things like "how we find out after the fact there was foul play (that goes unpunished)", I've looked enough at his claims with clear enough eyes to realize that Trump lies, and lies alot. So when he makes these claims with very little if any evidence and constant "whataboutisms" about the left, I don't put much stock into his rhetoric.

Aw, I'm sorry I disappointed you how close I was. I still get the sense that we agree alot of what the problem is, we just disagree in how going about making those changes is going to play out.

You can drop the whole programming argument, none of us are immune to propaganda, and it's too easy to just say it right back to you.

I did not deny that the end-state of Democratic control would also lead us down the fascist path, because I think capitalism inevitably ends there. When unfettered capitalism results in such wealth inequality that there is effectively no "middle class", only the poor and the rich, it will cause societal unrest that can only be assuaged by implementing more left-wing policies (which likely won't happen because capitalists have all the power) or resorting to martial law - suspending civil liberties to preserve order and breeding the conditions to abandon democracy. So, I won't defend what "liberals" are doing, trying to increase government control that is quite clearly in the pocket of capital. They would need to be calling for actual shifts of power back to the people for me to align with their goals.

I'd be fine with greater government power if it actually reflected the interests of the masses which clearly today it does not. I think government is downstream of actual power dynamics and today, power is derived from wealth.

The censorship debate is a tough one, I understand the arguments on both sides. For one, there is no such thing as limitless free speech even in the US. You cannot just lie things about a private person or organization without recourse, that opens you up to libel and slander claims. You also have limitations on your speech that results in dangerous conditions for the public or individuals (threatening violence against a person, inciting riots, yelling "fire" in a movie theater etc.). Then there is hate speech and dis/misinformation. This is the squishier part that conservatives are probably taking issue with, because who decides what is hate speech and what is/isn't misinformation. Well, in the absence of "perfect" solutions, my view is that at the very least, the more extreme examples should be decided by the government that is acting as a representative of the public's views. Rule of majority via democracy obviously has pitfalls, but none as large as its alternatives (rule of the minority, authoritarianism, etc.). I do not agree with not trying to regulate especially the more clear instances of hate speech or mis/disinformation because allowing those ideas to coexist amongst actual truth gives the false impression that they have equal credibility or comparable outcomes.

Are you sure they want more civil liberties foreveryone?It doesn't seem like they have alot of respect for the rights of libs, minorities, other religious views or LGBT people, and that makes up a whole lot of the American populace.

Less regulations are always a no-go with me as they largely only serve the interest of capital. Capitalism needs to be checked to maintain some level of humanity and equality otherwise it would quickly devolve back into feudalism. Anti-monopolies, barring their influence in politics, checks on union busting, safety regulations, working condition guarantees are all necessary to prevent the worst manifestations. I also don't believe the profit motive alone is the correct incentive in areas of inelastic demand or "necessities" such as shelter, healthcare, education, food, energy, transportation, utilities, etc.

The US already has quite favorable corporate tax structures. The statutory rate of 21% might be in line with other OECD nations, but that fails to encompass the large degree of taxable deductions, "loopholes" and straight up subsidies that the US government also gives to corporations. Even with higher corporate taxes, companies would not be willing to abandon the wealthiest consumer market in the world just to avoid taxes. When and if that manifests, we can take a more sober look at the effects, otherwise, sounds like capitalist propaganda that higher taxes restricts their businesses. We already know that"trickle down" or supply side economics does NOT work, even Arthur Laffer who came up with the theory has denounced its applicability to anything but the most extremes of a taxation regime (90%+ tax rates) so supporting tax cuts for the wealthy and corps is nonsense.

The government has no inherent limitations to its efficiency or proclivity towards corruption - it is certainly no worse than other large organizations such as corporations. The US experience with government "inefficiency" are the result of conservative and capitalist attempts to hamstring their performance with insufficient funding, limits to organizational power (right to work), unclear or complex mandates, all of which can be solved with good governance and removal of bad faith corporate influence. There are government agencies that do great work and have high approval rates, such as the National Park Service and NASA. So clearly, the problem is not with how wasteful or inefficient the government inherently is, its more accurately explained by partisanship that determines their perceived level of effectiveness.

Veteran trust in the VA healthcare system was above 90%, with patient experiences highly rated and even higher than that of private healthcare, and is one of the best examples for why single-payer systems work without looking at other western countries. Nearly 70 million Americans get some types of relief from social security, without it, a huge sector of the elderly and disabled would be living in abject poverty. The most obvious solution to the upcoming depletion of the trust would be to remove the tax exemption limit. These programs are effective in providing a critical safety net for those that fall between the cracks of a capitalist organization of the economy. Temporary unemployment or permanent unemployment due to injury or age should not mean you starve or are homeless. They should be expanded with less annoying hoops to go thru for people to fall off of them, not cut.

What is the private sector solution or analogue to these programs exactly? How do you get the private sector to care about these now non-productive members of society?

I much prefer to go with Occam's razor when dealing with Trump. Is it more likely that there is a grand orchestrated conspiracy involving thousands (if not more) people in disparate parts of the government and the media OR OR OR is it more likely that this one guy, Trump,just a f*cking liarand only acting in this own self-interest?

I have the same interest in increasing awareness of common people as to who is pulling strings in society, but I do not agree in who to support to address that.

You're logic is not consistent. You're forgetting that nearly all maga voters came to this conclusion before trump even announced a campaign. This sentiment is grassroots and genuine.

So ironic you talk about extremism without reckoning with how much closer the US is to the extremes of right-wing ideology (late-stage capitalism, fascism, corporatism). The extreme end of the left side of the spectrum is communism, something we are not even remotely closed to. We're not even close to democratic ownership of the means of production (socialism) much less a stateless, classless society. Having a few safety nets and government regulations is not socialism, they're reactions to where capitalism fails. Any attempts to push the US more to the left only serves to correct the current skew to the right. As a result, there is zero danger of the US accidentally descending into communism by enacting things like socialized healthcare, making higher education free or taxing the wealthy more. I'm in favor of correcting the balance, not pushing to either extreme.

Conservatives value the individual so as a result have zero way to stand up to the actual power base (the wealthy), so instead they cope by making hierarchies that places them at least above other individuals (the "lazy", the "stupid", the inferior cultures, immigrants, lgbt, minorities etc.) You focus on differences instead of similarities. In the process, they end up doing the bidding of capitalists by focusing on infighting rather than cooperation, thus maintaining the status quo.

Do you realize that what you just posted was Marxist propaganda? Do you even know who Ernest Mandel was?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, today's Marxists don't even realize they're Marxist. They've been lead to believe these are new and original ideas, and they broadcast it proudly. This is what complete indoctrination looks like. No original thought and educated to think one way.

I bet you thought your post was intelligent and well thought out, when it screams the opposite to anyone that knows better.

Are you ready to wake up yet? The answer to this will be our answer to this thread.

I hate Liberals.

short answer is you can't


Mentally ill people don't know they are mentally ill