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Forum » If you think AR-15s are useless for home defense, you are incredibly ignorant. (PIC)
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Thread: If you think AR-15s are useless for home defense, you are incredibly ignorant. (PIC)

post 1450765433 07-02-2016, 09:19 AM
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Home I'm moving into is 100% brick faced and all other homes around my are 100% bricked on the first floor, my children's rooms are upstairs so I'm not as worried about penetration just whatever stops a threat as quickly as possible, Also my first floor is basically my master suite, a huge open great room and then our office so big open sighlines, rifle seems like the ideal gun for my HD.
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post 1450766413 07-02-2016, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted By Canadian_Lifter⏩
You've posted a lot of useless jargon about bells and whistles that really hold no relevance. Concerning only - and only - what's important, I have two questions for you:

1. From your perspective, how does the maneuverability of an assault rifle compare to that of a handgun?
2. Compared to a shotgun for which a 'point-and-spray' approach can be used, really, how is an assault rifle even practical?
1. Maneuverability of handguns is overplayed. When your arms are properly extended, the overall length from your torso isn't that much shorter than a rifle, if at all.





2.
12g 00 buck loads at 12 feet (normal across-the-room distance)



12g 00 buck load at 20 yards (across a very long hallway)



Not exactly "spray and pray" by any means.
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post 1450766663 07-02-2016, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted By bigbobgotu⏩
I respect your right to use what you want but me personally have always used a short barrel 20ga with #4 or so shot. Big enough to kill but not enough that I have to worry about shooting through a wall and killing my family. Or my Glock 22 using some good HP rounds. At least it will have a low chance of killing someone after penetrating some housing material. The problem and why I don't use rifle rounds for home defense is purely because I don't want to shoot through a wall and kill a family member. When your home is being invaded you won't have track of all family members right away. One might be out of bed and hiding somewhere. Not ideal if you end up putting 10 rounds into a wall.

Edit: however if you live somewhere where you do not need to worry about over penetration then I would definitely go with an AR or some other small rifle.
The over penetration issue has been addressed multiple times in this thread, but here we go again:


Q. Isn't 5.56 too dangerous to use indoors? Shouldn't I use a pistol or shotgun instead?

Virtually any kind of ammo, with the exception of light bird shot, will easily penetrate typical wall construction (two layers of wall-board separated by 3 to 4 inches of space). Testing has shown, however, that after penetrating a typical interior wall, a 5.56mm projectile will have less wounding potential than most common handgun or buckshot loads. This is true because the low mass of the bullet sheds velocity quickly, and velocity is its key wounding component. This doesn't mean that 5.56mm ammo isn't still potentially deadly, but that the severity of an injury is likely to be less from a 5.56mm bullet than from a 9mm, .40, .45, or #00 buckshot round. What is important is not the degree to which these rounds penetrate, but their "ex post lethality" or their lethality AFTER encountering wallboard or other cover/concealment.

The difference is so significant that the FBI and other ballistic experts recommend that law enforcement transition to handguns to "dig suspects out" of cover because of the superior penetration and wounding ability of handgun rounds over 5.56 or .223.

This, along with the increasing number of lawsuits from "friendly fire" submachine gun victims and 5.56mm's ability to penetrate ballistic vests, are some of the reasons that many SWAT teams are transitioning away from the 9mm MP5 and selecting 5.56mm carbines instead.

This is understandable given the longer barrel length and therefore higher velocity and consequently higher penetration of handgun rounds in submachine guns.
MFC

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post 1450766893 07-02-2016, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted By BodyBalder9⏩
"Great because it's short barrelled for close quarters"

Puts a 12" silencer on the end.
As opposed to starting with a 16 Inch barrel...
MFC

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post 1450766963 07-02-2016, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted By Canadian_Lifter⏩
2. Compared to a shotgun for which a 'point-and-spray' approach can be used...
No, it can't. You need to go to a range and do some actual shooting at HD distances.

You need to aim a shotgun like any other weapon.
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post 1450767083 07-02-2016, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted By bigbobgotu⏩
I respect your right to use what you want but me personally have always used a short barrel 20ga with #4 or so shot. Big enough to kill but not enough that I have to worry about shooting through a wall and killing my family.
Jesus Christ... any round up to the task of incapacitating a person can sail right through typical construction materials.
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post 1450767373 07-02-2016, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted By DustinRB⏩
In my home I want one shot to stop any threat instantly when I have nowhere to go.
Too bad that's not how real life works. If that is your expectation, you are setting yourself up for failure.
Originally Posted By DustinRB⏩
Small risk of jamming on any semi auto weapon, multiple rounds possibly being required to stop threat, extreme risk of over penetration in residential areas, etc... I know my quality pump action shotgun is going to work flawlessly and a single round of 00 buck center mass is going to stop any threat instantly.
Please get some training. You need it.
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post 1450768213 07-02-2016, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩
How far away from your target can you be in your own home?
Well considering I am on over 11 acres, quite far.
Originally Posted By Canadian_Lifter⏩
You've posted a lot of useless jargon about bells and whistles that really hold no relevance. Concerning only - and only - what's important, I have two questions for you:

1. From your perspective, how does the maneuverability of an assault rifle compare to that of a handgun?
2. Compared to a shotgun for which a 'point-and-spray' approach can be used, really, how is an assault rifle even practical?
Before I even start, I do not own any assault rifles. They are all semi automatic.

1. 3 points of contact on a rifle provides a much more stable shooting platform with the addition of a butt stock tucked into the shoulder pocket. A light is a must on a home defense weapon. Even with a pistol mounted light, most if not all are activated with the trigger finger so you have to turn on the light, identify the threat and then move your finger back to the trigger to engage.

With a weapon mounted light activated by my non firing hand without having to move it from its support position I can work light and safety/trigger independently.

Handguns are also harder to retain if there is a scuffle. I normally have a sling on the rifle, so if I need to drop it or someone tries to grab it away from me it is secure and not going anywhere.

Rifles are not hard to use and are perfectly comfortable to manuever in close quarters...which is why SWAT and MIL conduct CQB using ARs, not handguns.

2. Spray and pray "you don't have to aim a shotgun" etc. are myths. You DO have to aim a shotgun and the standard sights are OK during the day but useless at night. Not to mention shotguns are much louder, produce more of a concussion in closed environments and have substantial recoil to contend with.

An AR is light, has no recoil, and can be easily used by my wife if needs be.

With the suppressor I am not blowing out my hearing.
MFC

RIP YGST
post 1450768383 07-02-2016, 09:46 AM
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post 1450768433 07-02-2016, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩
How far away from your target can you be in your own home?
Go take a force on force class and see what your accuracy is like under stress.
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post 1450768843 07-02-2016, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted By blumpkin415⏩
Think again Boyo...

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post 1450769683 07-02-2016, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted By Kiknskreem⏩
No, it can't. You need to go to a range and do some actual shooting at HD distances.

You need to aim a shotgun like any other weapon.
In the application of home defense (when such intruder is likely <10-15 ft, aka 'inside the house') - you're telling me that I would need to aim considerably with a shotgun? In other words - in closed quarters combat, a shotgun is not simply point and spray? I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be.

What do you consider to be HD distance regardless?

I know I'm no weapons expert but I do know how shotguns work and the mechanics behind a loaded shotgun round.

Regardless, it's been proven that guns are much more likely to be used offensively that defensively (ratio of 4:1) and prove to be of but little help for self defense (ratio of 7:1 per gun violence incidences). I will never be getting one and those with guns for such uses should be well aware of the consequences. Yes, accidents happen frequently. And such results in the deaths of loved ones.
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post 1450770003 07-02-2016, 10:01 AM
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would rather use a pistol over a rifle for indoor security due to maneuverability. Although it probably depends on the situation, if you are just going to sit in a corner of a room and wait for the fuker to walk in, then i would prefer a rifle, but if im chasing this guy down, its pistol all the way baby
post 1450770953 07-02-2016, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted By Canadian_Lifter⏩
In the application of home defense (when such intruder is likely <10-15 ft, aka 'inside the house') - you're telling me that I would need to aim considerably with a shotgun?
Most anyone can make reasonable hits with a long gun at room distance using only body alignment, but "spray and pray" should not be in your lexicon. You can easily miss with a shotgun, especially if you are of the mind that it doesn't need to be aimed.

Do some shooting at room distances and see the kind of spread you get.
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post 1450772343 07-02-2016, 10:21 AM
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If I was black, under 200lbs and living in Texas, it'd be a fear of mine too mayne.

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post 1450772403 07-02-2016, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted By Kiknskreem⏩
Jesus Christ... any round up to the task of incapacitating a person can sail right through typical construction materials.
Obviously but with different lethality on the other side. I have tested this and I feel much better with a 20ga and #4-6 shot vs any rifle. It is the best combination of penetration and lethality. That being said I always kept 00 buckshot on a stock sleeve for the instances where I would not have needed to worry about penetration.
post 1450772853 07-02-2016, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted By Canadian_Lifter⏩
In the application of home defense (when such intruder is likely <10-15 ft, aka 'inside the house') - you're telling me that I would need to aim considerably with a shotgun? In other words - in closed quarters combat, a shotgun is not simply point and spray? I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be.
You could look at the pictures in my post, which perfectly illustrates why it WOULD be. Every load tested patterned at under the size of a fist at 12 ft. Think you don't need to aim that?

http://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showth...post1450766413
Originally Posted By Canadian_Lifter⏩
What do you consider to be HD distance regardless?
0-the length of your longest hallway, realistically. Most likely around 7 yards / 21 ft.
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post 1450774083 07-02-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted By 4ea⏩
I agree. I have no sympathy for some scumbag who breaks into homes with the intent of harming the occupants,but shooting someone in that situation should always be the absolute last resort.

Glad to hear you've come around to 2A rights too man. Gun rights are civil rights, and we need as many people supporting it as possible.




Trust me man, you are much more capable of protecting yourself with a rifle than a pistol, even at close range.
Wrong. Couldn't be more wrong.

Perhaps you should make the intruder a cup of coffee, where you can discuss his intentions, and decide how to act from there. ****ING LOL

No, I am ****ing shooting them, period.
post 1450774393 07-02-2016, 10:39 AM
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We not going to talk about overpenetration happening 30ft from the home owners kids OP?
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post 1450774853 07-02-2016, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted By DatPass⏩
We not going to talk about overpenetration happening 30ft from the home owners kids OP?
Read the thread, retard.
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post 1450774913 07-02-2016, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted By Canadian_Lifter⏩
In the application of home defense (when such intruder is likely <10-15 ft, aka 'inside the house') - you're telling me that I would need to aim considerably with a shotgun? In other words - in closed quarters combat, a shotgun is not simply point and spray? I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be.
At 10-15 feet, you 'point and spray' (aim with your shoulders, basically) with any firearm. That is danger close distance. There is limited advantage to a shotgun in that scenario that an AR15 or even a pistol wouldn't supersede.

If you can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be, you need to get some training.
Originally Posted By bigbobgotu⏩
I respect your right to use what you want but me personally have always used a short barrel 20ga with #4 or so shot. Big enough to kill but not enough that I have to worry about shooting through a wall and killing my family. Or my Glock 22 using some good HP rounds. At least it will have a low chance of killing someone after penetrating some housing material. The problem and why I don't use rifle rounds for home defense is purely because I don't want to shoot through a wall and kill a family member. When your home is being invaded you won't have track of all family members right away. One might be out of bed and hiding somewhere. Not ideal if you end up putting 10 rounds into a wall.

Edit: however if you live somewhere where you do not need to worry about over penetration then I would definitely go with an AR or some other small rifle.
How often have you taken your 20g out and fired through dry wall / sheet rock targets?

You might be in for a surprise man.
Originally Posted By NuggzTheNinja⏩
You could look at the pictures in my post, which perfectly illustrates why it WOULD be. Every load tested patterned at under the size of afistat 12 ft. Think you don't need to aim that?
Just lol if you think boxers have to aim their fists
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post 1450776253 07-02-2016, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted By blumpkin415⏩
You took the comment out of context. the rifle pictured is by my bedside. There is another similar one in the front of the house, with handguns in the rooms I am generally in.
Sorry, I meant this more as a general observation rather than a specific point about your setup - this is a quote I've seen a few times.

In that situation, if a person happened to be in a room with only a handgun, would they be thinking about how to get to a different weapon or just focusing on the immediate threat and using what they have available? And if they get to that other room, isn't there a potential risk during the time it takes to put down the handgun and pick up the other (granted that may only be a few seconds)?
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Originally Posted By bigdownunder⏩
In that situation, if a person happened to be in a room with only a handgun, would they be thinking about how to get to a different weapon or just focusing on the immediate threat and using what they have available? And if they get to that other room, isn't there a potential risk during the time it takes to put down the handgun and pick up the other (granted that may only be a few seconds)?
I think you might be taking the saying a bit too literally.
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Rather than talk about meme shotguns and room clearing like I'm SEAL team 6, what are other miscers actual strategies if a home invasion happens?

There have been several in my neighborhood this last year and each had involved multiple criminals, assuming most of the intruders are packing hi points and can't shoot for chit

We have a fairly solid bed base that I've told my wife to drop behind while I crouch behind it and put 5 rounds into anyone who comes into the bedroom door (there's a tight little mini corridor leading into the doorway and a 90 degree turn to get into the room)

My worry is my dogs getting shot by intruders and the 10 mag ca limit getting me killed


Purely hypothetically, someone could have a higher capacity mag preloaded for the bedside gun and that mag could vanish after the situation has been resolved.

Since over penetration is the issue I'm assuming +p ammo is not a great idea in these scenarios
post 1450778153 07-02-2016, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted By BlueSasquatch⏩
I restore axes as a hobby, have around 300 of them, maybe 50 currently restored and sharpened, literally every room of the house has about a dozen.



If you think a home invader won't 360 his ass outta there upon entry, you got another thing coming boyo.




So you leave weapons around for an intruder to grab and toss at you?
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post 1450785783 07-02-2016, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted By bigdownunder⏩
Sorry, I meant this more as a general observation rather than a specific point about your setup - this is a quote I've seen a few times.

In that situation, if a person happened to be in a room with only a handgun, would they be thinking about how to get to a different weapon or just focusing on the immediate threat and using what they have available? And if they get to that other room, isn't there a potential risk during the time it takes to put down the handgun and pick up the other (granted that may only be a few seconds)?
The quote sums up the mentality of those that are well trained in using firearms as a defensive tool, defensive tactics, tactical operations, etc.

Along with the first rule of a gunfight: Bring a gun. Preferably a long gun.

Every situation is different but let me give you an example. Say I am in the kitchen and for some reason someone crashes through my door. I have a handgun in a kitchen drawer so naturally I will grab that and assess the threat and apply force necessary to end it. Say in that scenario I face an armed man when I round the corner and I put him down. My next action is to keep the handgun trained on the front as I move to the back of the house to retrieve the rifle in case he is not alone.

If I am in the back of the house and something goes "crash", i'm retrieving the rifle as it is preferable.
MFC

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Originally Posted By Halfway⏩
Rather than talk about meme shotguns and room clearing like I'm SEAL team 6, what are other miscers actual strategies if a home invasion happens?

There have been several in my neighborhood this last year and each had involved multiple criminals, assuming most of the intruders are packing hi points and can't shoot for chit

We have a fairly solid bed base that I've told my wife to drop behind while I crouch behind it and put 5 rounds into anyone who comes into the bedroom door (there's a tight little mini corridor leading into the doorway and a 90 degree turn to get into the room)

My worry is my dogs getting shot by intruders and the 10 mag ca limit getting me killed


Purely hypothetically, someone could have a higher capacity mag preloaded for the bedside gun and that mag could vanish after the situation has been resolved.

Since over penetration is the issue I'm assuming +p ammo is not a great idea in these scenarios
I use to teach home defense courses and provide in home defense consulting in CA.

We always recommended NOT GOING OUT TO CONFRONT if someone comes in. Get you and your family to your bedroom and put them and you on the farthest side of the bed from the bedroom door. Immediately have spouse/gf dial 911 to start the audio recording and summon help.

Yell loudly that police are on their way, and if they come through the bedroom door they are going to get shot. That is now captured on 911 that you told them to leave and what would happen if they pressed the attack.

If they leave, great.

If not and they come through the door, shoot until the threat stops.

Advise 911 of what happened, give a description of yourself for responding officers...and then SHUT YOUR MOUTH.

The only thing you, your spouse/GF and kids say to the police is "I was in fear for my life, I want my lawyer NOW".

In the State of CA if someone makes forcible entry into your home, the state automatically presumes you were in fear of death or great bodily injury. Keep your mouth shut, give a statement through your attorney and let the physical evidence and 911 call do the explaining for you.
MFC

RIP YGST
post 1450787163 07-02-2016, 12:34 PM
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#148
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Originally Posted By blumpkin415⏩
I use to teach home defense courses and provide in home defense consulting in CA.

We always recommended NOT GOING OUT TO CONFRONT if someone comes in. Get you and your family to your bedroom and put them and you on the farthest side of the bed from the bedroom door. Immediately have spouse/gf dial 911 to start the audio recording and summon help.

Yell loudly that police are on their way, and if they come through the bedroom door they are going to get shot. That is now captured on 911 that you told them to leave and what would happen if they pressed the attack.

If they leave, great.

If not and they come through the door, shoot until the threat stops.

Advise 911 of what happened, give a description of yourself for responding officers...and then SHUT YOUR MOUTH.

The only thing you, your spouse/GF and kids say to the police is "I was in fear for my life, I want my lawyer NOW".

In the State of CA if someone makes forcible entry into your home, the state automatically presumes you were in fear of death or great bodily injury. Keep your mouth shut, give a statement through your attorney and let the physical evidence and 911 call do the explaining for you.
thanks bro, that was pretty much what I planned.

Do you recommend a strobe light or HL light on the gun in these situations ? I have a tlr 2 on my mk25.

Every invasion has happened in the middle of the night so I assume wed both be in bed when it happens, I'm just hoping our rottweilers make us an undesirable target
post 1450787863 07-02-2016, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted By Halfway⏩
thanks bro, that was pretty much what I planned.

Do you recommend a strobe light or HL light on the gun in these situations ? I have a tlr 2 on my mk25.

Every invasion has happened in the middle of the night so I assume wed both be in bed when it happens, I'm just hoping our rottweilers make us an undesirable target
A light is a must. Not only will it disorient a threat and prevent them from seeing what you are doing, it also allows you to positively identify the person is not known to you, if they are armed, and that its not your neighbor who is sloppy drunk and thought he was getting into his own house.

I have two dogs totaling 200lbs. I love them. They are part of the family. But, they are an early warning system and a first line of defense. Make no mistake that if someone comes into your house armed with ill intent, they will try and shoot them first thing if they don't run.

This goes back to why I always taught people that those stupid stick figure family stickers on vehicles are a no go. It lets anyone casing your place know how many adults they have to content with, how many kids, and if they have to deal with dogs.
MFC

RIP YGST
post 1450813553 07-02-2016, 04:32 PM
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Hmmm I could've sworn I put this overpenetration thing to rest on Page 3.
the pump is the cure
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