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Forum » A Date Which Will Live in Infamy
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Thread: A Date Which Will Live in Infamy

post 1474142531 12-07-2016, 11:40 AM
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[QUOTE=meenman83 post_id=1474128191]What's sad is people are so un aware of how war truly is. The ones that sit on the sidelines are the first to point their finger saying we did it wrong. When we used our big stick it truly showed America's power and it proved that we do not back down from chit. The nuke was a major play and has kept us as the Alphas on earth for the last 75 years. [b]Let us not forget that all of Europe would be speaking German if it wasn't for us Americans as well.....[b/][/QUOTE]
That's certainly up for debate. Whilst it's unlikely that the Normandy landings would have been possible without US support, the soviet union was starting to turn the tide on Nazi germany by the time the US started playing an active role in the european theatre. Not to mention the Operation Sealion had been abandoned, meaning that the UK remained unconquered.

And anyway, nations continue to exist for along time after their states have dissappeared. The polish state was dismantled in the 1700s, but the polish nation survived until it's state was reestablished in 1919.
So no, all of Europe would not now be speaking german if it wasn't for americans...



And all belligerants targeted civilians (or perhaps "population centres" is the correct term") through bombing.

The US and Britain were particularly good at large scale bombing, mainly because they possessed the equipment and resources to carry it out on a large scale. Of course the goal wasn't to kill as many civilians as possible but if flattening urban housing helped end the war, of course they would do it.
Germany bombed cities as well with little regard for human life, but towards the end of the war, the Luftwaffe lacked the planes or any kind of air superiority needed to carry out such attacks.
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post 1474142931 12-07-2016, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted By WillBrink⏩
One of various reasons the two highest level officers where raked over the coals after it and careers ruined. What did exist for obvious signs, were ignored. Hubris and arrogance are a m-fer. Some felt they were unjustly blamed, but it did happen on their watch.
Don't forget that the radar station saw the group of aircraft approaching on their screens, but they figured it was scheduled incoming US aircraft from the mainland.

Their officer told them "Don't worry about it."


The officer was cleared of any wrongdoing due to inexperience, but he said in an interview in 2007 that it still haunted him.
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post 1474143401 12-07-2016, 11:47 AM
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Part of the reason why the nukes were dropped was because time was of the essence. The Soviet Union had begun to invade Japanese possessions in Asia (northern Korea for instance). The US did not want Japan to fall to Soviet communism and they did not want to spend millions of lives in an invasion (the Japanese were ready to fight to the last man). The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were to get the Emperor to get his cabinet (controlled by a militant faction) to surrender. There was even a coup against the emperor to prolong the war but it failed (Kyujo Incident). Had Japan fallen to the USSR, it would probably resemble North Korea today except more industrialized and with a larger population, meaning the Cold War might have turned out differently.
post 1474143631 12-07-2016, 11:49 AM
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post 1474144221 12-07-2016, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted By Iceman1800⏩
And Americans still buy Japanese cars.....smh
I get what you're saying but at some point you have to move on from the past. Otherwise native americans would be justified in scalping americans, we'd still be sanctioning germany, etc etc.
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post 1474145261 12-07-2016, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted By tvr123⏩
That's certainly up for debate. Whilst it's unlikely that the Normandy landings would have been possible without US support, the soviet union was starting to turn the tide on Nazi germany by the time the US started playing an active role in the european theatre. Not to mention the Operation Sealion had been abandoned, meaning that the UK remained unconquered.

And anyway, nations continue to exist for along time after their states have dissappeared. The polish state was dismantled in the 1700s, but the polish nation survived until it's state was reestablished in 1919.
So no, all of Europe would not now be speaking german if it wasn't for americans...



And all belligerants targeted civilians (or perhaps "population centres" is the correct term") through bombing.

The US and Britain were particularly good at large scale bombing, mainly because they possessed the equipment and resources to carry it out on a large scale. Of course the goal wasn't to kill as many civilians as possible but if flattening urban housing helped end the war, of course they would do it.
Germany bombed cities as well with little regard for human life, but towards the end of the war, the Luftwaffe lacked the planes or any kind of air superiority needed to carry out such attacks.
While it's true Russia would have won a war of attrition eventually, if the US had stayed out, as so many eurpeans seem to have wanted us to do these days, then germany would have been completely under soviet control, basically all of it a crappy east-berlin style of rule, russia would have been the only major technology leader and they would have undoubtedly ****ed the world up... hell russia may have just kept going across europe if we werent there to oppose them
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post 1474145361 12-07-2016, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted By tvr123⏩
That's certainly up for debate. Whilst it's unlikely that the Normandy landings would have been possible without US support, the soviet union was starting to turn the tide on Nazi germany by the time the US started playing an active role in the european theatre.
As mentioned prior, The major reason they were able to turn it around was due to the US Lend Lease Program and the winter. The program that literally saved the Russians was banned from even discussing in Russia for many decades as they don't wanna admit what actually allowed them to turn it around. Even in the US, this one does not get nearly the attention it should. We didn't get into the war until PH, but were very active in it well before:

Russia’s Life-Saver: Lend-Lease Aid to the U.S.S.R. in World War II

http://www.historynet.com/russias-li...ook-review.htm
Originally Posted By tvr123⏩
Not to mention the Operation Sealion had been abandoned, meaning that the UK remained unconquered.
And why was that? The Nazi's were unable to achieve air dominance due to the RAF flying US made and supplied planes kicking the chit out of the Germans during the Battle of Britain. The Brits added better engines to the planes for more power, but it was those US planes that again, kept the Nazi's off their shores.

All the above, even well before the US officially joined, US supplies and Russian, Brit, etc lives is what held the Nazi machine at bay.
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post 1474146831 12-07-2016, 12:15 PM
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post 1474146971 12-07-2016, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted By WillBrink⏩
Did you read the thread? The reason they were able to turn it around was due to the US Lend Lease Program and the winter. The program that literally saved the Russians was banned from even discussing in Russia for many decades as they don't wanna admit what actually allowed them to turn it around. Even in the US, this one does not get nearly the attention it should. We didn't get into the war until PH, but were very active in it well before:

Russia’s Life-Saver: Lend-Lease Aid to the U.S.S.R. in World War II

http://www.historynet.com/russias-li...ook-review.htm
I said active role, as in committing military forces. And why do you have to be so argumentative with everyone? Was the "did you read the thread?" comment really necessary?
And lend lease surely helped the ussr to victory, but their production was already higher than germany's in 1941, and the gap continued to widen throughout the length of the conflict.
And why was that? The Nazi's were unable to achieve air dominance due to the RAF flying US made and supplied planes kicking the chit out of the Germans during the Battle of Britain. The Brits added better engines to the planes for more power, but it was those US planes that again, kept the Nazi's off their shores.

All the above, even well before the US officially joined, US supplies and Russian, Brit, etc lives is what held the Nazi machine at bay.
Atlantic shipping was guarded by the royal navy. The supplies were not free. The vast majority were not US planes, though certainly supplies from the US were used in their construction.
Originally Posted By seanb1979⏩
While it's true Russia would have won a war of attrition eventually, if the US had stayed out, as so many eurpeans seem to have wanted us to do these days, then germany would have been completely under soviet control, basically all of it a crappy east-berlin style of rule, russia would have been the only major technology leader and they would have undoubtedly ****ed the world up... hell russia may have just kept going across europe if we werent there to oppose them
This is true. The soviet union brought misery and poverty to half of europe for 45 years, and the effects are still apparent today. East germany for example has still not recovered to the same level as the western 2/3s of the country.
There were no good guys in the war of annihilation between Nazi Germany and the USSR, just one evil regime vs another.
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post 1474148511 12-07-2016, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted By NotBigEnough206⏩
I remember reading someplace that the Japanese did not have much of an option.
The US put a blockade/embargo on them, sank their ships coming in to Japan with Subs that carried steel etc.
The Japanese had no way out but to attack the country that was starving them out.

Also was watching a documentary the other day, Mazda based out of Hiroshima, is now driven all over the USA.
While yet you look at Detroit.
So the USA bombed Japan with Atomic weapons, destroyed two cities completely.
But economically Japan did the same to Detroit, some of the places look like they were bombed.

History is crazy brahs.
Either way though, RIP to the souls lost on that day.
Burgerland put an oil embargo on Japan + froze all their assets in America. But that's because they were fuking chit up in Mainland Asia.
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post 1474149211 12-07-2016, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted By tvr123⏩
I said active role, as in committing military forces.
You said: "was starting to turn the tide on Nazi germany by the time the US started playing an active role in the european theatre"

And I said they were able to turn it around due in large part or in total due to US involvement before they had the active mil role. See what I did there brah?
Originally Posted By tvr123⏩
And why do you have to be so argumentative with everyone? Was the "did you read the thread?" comment really necessary?
Dude, don't be a sensitive flower. I was simply pointing out what seemed a major aspect you were overlooking covered prior in this thread. It was not intended to be argumentative and to now, only been "argumentative" with those making the idiotic revisionist history comments
Originally Posted By tvr123⏩
Atlantic shipping was guarded by the royal navy. The supplies were not free. The vast majority were not US planes, though certainly supplies from the US were used in their construction.
I didn't claim free, but they were indeed why the Brits were able to hold out, why the Russians were able to turn it around, etc. due to huge amounts of supplies and support via the US. My only point here is, the US played a major role in WWII to its allies and even "we hate you but hate the Germans even more" Russians well before committing to combat and that fact seems to be ignored by many, and actually banned by threat of prison in Russia 'till fall of Commies. We also helped the Chinese well before the PH, but that thank you card from the Chinese has yet to show up.
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post 1474149321 12-07-2016, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted By GrimesSU⏩
Don't forget that the radar station saw the group of aircraft approaching on their screens, but they figured it was scheduled incoming US aircraft from the mainland.

Their officer told them "Don't worry about it."


The officer was cleared of any wrongdoing due to inexperience, but he said in an interview in 2007 that it still haunted him.
That's cuz it was all an inside job brah!
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post 1474151351 12-07-2016, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted By meenman83⏩
What's sad is people are so un aware of how war truly is. The ones that sit on the sidelines are the first to point their finger saying we did it wrong. When we used our big stick it truly showed America's power and it proved that we do not back down from chit. The nuke was a major play and has kept us as the Alphas on earth for the last 75 years. Let us not forget that all of Europe would be speaking German if it wasn't for us Americans as well.....
It's probably important to remember that Great Britain declared war on Germany first in 1939, not the other way round. Hitler did not want to fight Britain. There would've been no Western front if we had simply accepted Hitlers offer of peace in 1940 or not declared war in 1939, instead we stood alone - no America or Russia in the war - against Nazi Germany. We literally risked Germany invading our home land to fight National Socialism. America had been calling it a European war and wanted no part of it, there was no desire from the US people to fight the war until Pearl Harbor was attacked. At the end of the war the only thanks Britain got for standing alone against Hitler was astronomical national debt and the loss of the British Empire.

It's also debatable that Germany would have ever been able to invade Britain, we still had the largest Navy in the world, which would've all sailed home if Germany threatened an invasion. The US did keep us fed though along with our own merchant fleet, thousands of sailors both British and American were lost in the Atlantic to U-Boats.

I think what we have to take from this is that America won the war, Britain won the war, and Russia won the war. All 3 were equally important.
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post 1474153001 12-07-2016, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted By Ronnie87⏩
It's probably important to remember that Great Britain declared war on Germany first in 1939, not the other way round. Hitler did not want to fight Britain. There would've been no Western front if we had simply accepted Hitlers offer of peace in 1940 or not declared war in 1939, instead we stood alone - no America or Russia in the war - against Nazi Germany. We literally risked Germany invading our home land to fight National Socialism. America had been calling it a European war and wanted no part of it, there was no desire from the US people to fight the war until Pearl Harbor was attacked. At the end of the war the only thanks Britain got for standing alone against Hitler was astronomical national debt and the loss of the British Empire.
And by "we" you mean the GOAT mother f-er Winston Churchill, who warned of the threat of Hitler all along and never wavered as Chamberlain refused to do anything. I do not think one could narrow down the preservation of western civilization down to a single person more than Churchill. It's amazing how the fate of an entire nation, in fact the world, can come down to one man.

You all sure were mean to him right after the war man. I guess you all felt he could win the war but not the peace.

To that end, I would add we probably should have officially entered earlier, and the Brits have nothing to be thankful for, as brothers help brothers and the Brits would do the same for us. Poor Churchill was working hard to convince us we needed to join in sooner than later, and we stuck our heads in the sand until PH. The Russians on the other hand owe the US (and the Brits also who supplied tanks, etc) a huge debt of gratitude for which only a few will even admit to, and that pisses me off.
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post 1474153351 12-07-2016, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted By WillBrink⏩
I love Japanese cars man.



History Channel yup. Says:

Aired on:
Dec 03, 2016
Available Until:
Jan 08, 2017



He's never made anything better than 5-6/10 if he's the lead. Meh.
How dare you.. The Town is the GOAT
post 1474153781 12-07-2016, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted By WillBrink⏩
And by "we" you mean the GOAT mother f-er Winston Churchill, who warned of the threat of Hitler all along and never wavered as Chamberlain refused to do anything. I do not think one could narrow down the preservation of western civilization down to a single person more than Churchill. It's amazing how the fate of an entire nation, in fact the world, can come down to one man.

You all sure were mean to him right after the war man. I guess you all felt he could win the war but not the peace.
Churchill was the greatest Briton to ever live without a doubt. Him and Roosevelt had that **** locked down. You do need different leaders in war and peace time though.
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post 1474153901 12-07-2016, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted By Iceman1800⏩
And Americans still buy Japanese cars.....smh
They were under a different regime back then, that's like saying we shouldn't buy BMW/Audi/Volks/Mercedes cars (German) cause of Hitler.
post 1474154491 12-07-2016, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted By WillBrink⏩
False. The Japanese were in China and expanding their empire and doing horrible chit to the Chinese and the region. There's a reason the entire region to this day hates the Japanese. We and others demanded they stop doing that, and they refused. We wanted to avoid war, but were the major supplier of oil and stuff to Japan, so we simply stopped selling them what they needed for their war machine. We had every right to not want to support their war efforts in the region, and they took that as an act of war, and attacked. Their option was to stop what they were doing to the other countries in the region, and it would have been biz per usual with oil, etc. Hence, you have to go back a few steps to really see why we did what we did, and they did what they did. They did have an option, they just refused to take it, but at that time, similar to the Germans, their entire society built around war and expansion and little else. They wanted a fight, and they got one. They just picked the wrong foe who took that sneak attack personally, and the rest is history.
Again - well stated. I almost made the same point about their absolutely brutal invasion of China but you type faster.

Michael Vick had 1,000X more respect for dogs than the Japanese had for China (soldiers and citizens). Gang rapes of 10 year old girls was recreation.
post 1474155161 12-07-2016, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted By WillBrink⏩
To that end, I would add we probably should have officially entered earlier, and the Brits have nothing to be thankful for, as brothers help brothers and the Brits would do the same for us. Poor Churchill was working hard to convince us we needed to join in sooner than later, and we stuck our heads in the sand until PH. The Russians on the other hand owe the US (and the Brits also who supplied tanks, etc) a huge debt of gratitude for which only a few will even admit to, and that pisses me off.
From a Russian point of view, they lost 24 million men fighting Germany. You're looking at about 25 times more than the US and UK combined. We had it relatively easy compared to the Russians. 24 million is about 20% of their national population in 1939, which is absolutely crazy (imagine the US losing 65 million people in a war today). You can sort of understand from that point of view why they feel they deserved half of Europe after defeating Germany.
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post 1474155341 12-07-2016, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted By Ronnie87⏩
It's probably important to remember that Great Britain declared war on Germany first in 1939, not the other way round. Hitler did not want to fight Britain. There would've been no Western front if we had simply accepted Hitlers offer of peace in 1940 or not declared war in 1939, instead we stood alone - no America or Russia in the war - against Nazi Germany. We literally risked Germany invading our home land to fight National Socialism. America had been calling it a European war and wanted no part of it, there was no desire from the US people to fight the war until Pearl Harbor was attacked. At the end of the war the only thanks Britain got for standing alone against Hitler was astronomical national debt and the loss of the British Empire.

It's also debatable that Germany would have ever been able to invade Britain, we still had the largest Navy in the world, which would've all sailed home if Germany threatened an invasion. The US did keep us fed though along with our own merchant fleet, thousands of sailors both British and American were lost in the Atlantic to U-Boats.

I think what we have to take from this is that America won the war, Britain won the war, and Russia won the war. All 3 were equally important.
WHAT?

All 3 were equally important?

As much as I love the Brits and have great respect for Churchill and for the perseverance of Great Britain you can't possible compare their role to The Russians and Americans.
post 1474156161 12-07-2016, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted By jakeeck⏩
How dare you.. The Town is the GOAT
I don't get that one brah. Esplain,
Originally Posted By Ronnie87⏩
Churchill was the greatest Briton to ever live without a doubt. Him and Roosevelt had that **** locked down. You do need different leaders in war and peace time though.
Considering he'd essentially single handedly saved you all and likely all of Europe, seemed awfully rude to vote him out the second the war was over. Our guy just died right before the war ended, like a proper war time leader
Originally Posted By Nicro327⏩
They were under a different regime back then, that's like saying we shouldn't buy BMW/Audi/Volks/Mercedes cars (German) cause of Hitler.
Actually, many old timers would never buy them for that very reason.
Originally Posted By DarrylCalgary⏩
Again - well stated. I almost made the same point about their absolutely brutal invasion of China but you type faster.

Michael Vick had 1,000X more respect for dogs than the Japanese had for China (soldiers and citizens). Gang rapes of 10 year old girls was recreation.
Anyone who has any sympathy for the Japanese during WWII is an ignorant moron, simple as that. Per usual, it's the general population that suffers most and the Japanese civilian population suffered badly, but that was not our doing but the doing of their government ultimately.
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post 1474156321 12-07-2016, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted By WillBrink⏩
I don't get that one brah. Esplain,
Affleck was the lead in the movie The Town, one of my favorites of all time.
post 1474157201 12-07-2016, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted By DarrylCalgary⏩
WHAT?

All 3 were equally important?

As much as I love the Brits and have great respect for Churchill and for the perseverance of Great Britain you can't possible compare their role to The Russians and Americans.
In defeating Germany we were as important as America for what I outlined above. We did not do as much heavy lifting as America, we didn't lose as many men as Russia, but we did lose around the same as the US which should tell you something. Germany could've possibly defeated Russia if there was no Western Front to defend, no North Africa campaign to fight, no opposition to their Navy, etc. The US basically beat Japan on their own though, so all credit there. General MacArthur was a beast.
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post 1474158161 12-07-2016, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted By WillBrink⏩
75th Annaversy of a day "Which Will Live in Infamy. Sadly, Most here couldn't even tell you what happened that day, and the revisionist history has the Japanese as the victims of evil nukes, etc. I thought this documentary - Pearl Harbor: 75 Years Later - was well done if anyone didn't see it. Worth a watch:

http://www.history.com/specials/pear...r/full-special

Any links for the documentary for an irish brah?
post 1474158471 12-07-2016, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted By WillBrink⏩
Considering he'd essentially single handedly saved you all and likely all of Europe, seemed awfully rude to vote him out the second the war was over. Our guy just died right before the war ended, like a proper war time leader
It's interesting to speculate what Hitler may have done if we had stayed out of the war, would he have eventually invaded Britain? Maybe. If he defeated Russia, and then Britain, they could've helped Japan win in the Pacific and may have eventually invaded the US homeland like in that TV program Man in the High Castle
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post 1474158711 12-07-2016, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted By Ronnie87⏩
It's probably important to remember that Great Britain declared war on Germany first in 1939, not the other way round. Hitler did not want to fight Britain. There would've been no Western front if we had simply accepted Hitlers offer of peace in 1940 or not declared war in 1939, instead we stood alone - no America or Russia in the war - against Nazi Germany. We literally risked Germany invading our home land to fight National Socialism. America had been calling it a European war and wanted no part of it, there was no desire from the US people to fight the war until Pearl Harbor was attacked. At the end of the war the only thanks Britain got for standing alone against Hitler was astronomical national debt and the loss of the British Empire.

It's also debatable that Germany would have ever been able to invade Britain, we still had the largest Navy in the world, which would've all sailed home if Germany threatened an invasion. The US did keep us fed though along with our own merchant fleet, thousands of sailors both British and American were lost in the Atlantic to U-Boats.

I think what we have to take from this is that America won the war, Britain won the war, and Russia won the war. All 3 were equally important.
It's also worth remembering that although we tend to look back on it as david v goliath kind of match, the british empire was not the underdog pitted against germany. If anything, it was vice versa. Germany may have controlled most of continental western and central europe in 1940, but it's impossible to bring to bear the might of a nation that does not want to fight for you, such as France.

It was the overwhelming superiority of the Allies in manpower, natural resources, capital and industrial capacity that won the war. The defeat of the Axis power was inevitable. Even if Germany had defeated the USSR, they would not have been able to mobilise the entirety of their resources, and they would have been forced to deal with crippling partisan resistance.
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post 1474159331 12-07-2016, 01:41 PM
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The chit the Japanese did in WWII.. most people don't even know the chit they did. Nazis weren't the only ones doing insane chit to humanity
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post 1474159651 12-07-2016, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted By tvr123⏩
It's also worth remembering that although we tend to look back on it as david v goliath kind of match, the british empire was not the underdog pitted against germany. If anything, it was vice versa. Germany may have controlled most of continental western and central europe in 1940, but it's impossible to bring to bear the might of a nation that does not want to fight for you, such as France.

It was the overwhelming superiority of the Allies in manpower, natural resources, capital and industrial capacity that won the war. The defeat of the Axis power was inevitable. Even if Germany had defeated the USSR, they would not have been able to mobilise the entirety of their resources, and they would have been forced to deal with crippling partisan resistance.
Jeez don't get me started on the French. WW2 is a complete embarrassment for them and rightly so. The French Army should've kept Hitler in check, instead they almost couldn't wait to surrender. The Greeks had their civilians coming out with pitch forks to fight German paratroopers, the French couldn't even get their Army out of the Maginot line.
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post 1474159711 12-07-2016, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted By DarrylCalgary⏩
WHAT?

All 3 were equally important?

As much as I love the Brits and have great respect for Churchill and for the perseverance of Great Britain you can't possible compare their role to The Russians and Americans.
I think credit where it's due. Hitler had no plan to go to war with Britain, in fact he saw them as partners to take over Europe and was surprised and dismayed when the Churchill said screw off. The nads it took to have all of Europe falling, your supposed allies (the US) telling they do not have your back, and to declare war on the Germans alone, hoping the God that channel and your superior Navy will keep them off you until your stupid allies accross the pond wake up and help. There's only a few men in history with that type of metal and the world is lucky such a man existed at the right time and place. The Brits were the lynch pin, the first country to give the Nazi war machine its first defeats, showing the world it could be done. We can't under estimate the importance of that.
Originally Posted By jakeeck⏩
Affleck was the lead in the movie The Town, one of my favorites of all time.
LOl, my bad. Didn't see that one.
Originally Posted By Ronnie87⏩
In defeating Germany we were as important as America for what I outlined above. We did not do as much heavy lifting as America, we didn't lose as many men as Russia, but we did lose around the same as the US which should tell you something. Germany could've possibly defeated Russia if there was no Western Front to defend, no North Africa campaign to fight, no opposition to their Navy, etc. The US basically beat Japan on their own though, so all credit there. General MacArthur was a beast.
The Brits gave everything they had to the war effort and almost lost everything they had in that effort. Nothing more could be asked. Sorry you had general Montgomery, but you did have Churchill, and we had plenty of killer generals and stuff to fight with, so all good.
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