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Forum » Society produces bad people because they don't suffer
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Thread: Society produces bad people because they don't suffer

post 1563744321 10-15-2018, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted By propreffered7⏩
I think isolation is the main culprit.
Main culprit for what?

And what do you mean by isolation?
Youll never see violence quicker than when you try to take someones voice away. Thats why if you ever deal with someone like that you gotta acknowledge their plight. Everyone wants their voice heard
According to Violence Expert James Gilligan's summaries of a number of studies in his bookPreventing Violence(I highly recommend it), the strongest predictor of violence in experiment is an insult - triggering an experience of humiliation.
If You Don't Like To Talk About Your Feelings, This Might Help...
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=178926621

The Most Heartbreaking Thing That I've Learned About 'The Elite'.
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Bitcoin And 'The Elite' - Why Bitcoin Is Not Revolutionary
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=179820783
post 1563744471 10-15-2018, 09:09 AM
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FYI, it basically has to be genetics in the end. Even if specific environmental triggers were required, the way you react to those triggers was always genetically coded. There is simply no other option. That being said, fixing those triggers and removing them could mean relatively normal development in people who would have otherwise ended up very fuked up.
post 1563744651 10-15-2018, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
FYI, it basicallyhas to be genetics in the end. Even if specific environmental triggers were required, the way you react to those triggers was always genetically coded. There is simply no other option.
Why are you concluding only one variable is to blame?

Why have you eliminated other factors like environment, socio-economics, trauma, and culture?

I think all of those mentioned factors (plus genetics), contribute to who a person is. (Based purely from a secular perspective, but I'm a religious theist, and I'm leaving aside any religious or spiritual arguments).
If You Don't Like To Talk About Your Feelings, This Might Help...
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=178926621

The Most Heartbreaking Thing That I've Learned About 'The Elite'.
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Bitcoin And 'The Elite' - Why Bitcoin Is Not Revolutionary
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=179820783
post 1563744881 10-15-2018, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted By Vrykul⏩
I just gave you a statistic that people that come from broken homes are more likely to be criminals (9x more likely to be exact), how do you dispute this? Oh their home must be broken because they have bad genes? That's not an argument boyo
Sorry I just went back to your first post and saw your two NCBI links, missed them at first, thought you only posted serial killer names lol... Will read them in a bit..
post 1563744991 10-15-2018, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
FYI, it basically has to be genetics in the end. Even if specific environmental triggers were required, the way you react to those triggers was always genetically coded. There is simply no other option.
Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
Why are you concluding only one variable is to blame?
The alternative would force him to confront the reality that he is partly to blame for his circumstances, and that can never happen.
Nah, fukk that. I’m not doing that.
post 1563745001 10-15-2018, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
Why are you concluding only one variable is to blame?

Why have you eliminated other factors like environment, socio-economics, trauma, and culture?

I think all of those mentioned factors (plus genetics), contribute to who a person is. (Based purely from a secular perspective, but I'm a religious theist, and I'm leaving aside any religious or spiritual arguments).
Because how you respond to all of those environmental conditions are purely determined by your genetics.
post 1563745131 10-15-2018, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
FYI, it basically has to be genetics in the end. Even if specific environmental triggers were required, the way you react to those triggers was always genetically coded. There is simply no other option. That being said, fixing those triggers and removing them could mean relatively normal development in people who would have otherwise ended up very fuked up.
Too hard to tell. That argument goes on forever. But i think i disagree

I absolutely hate drugs being recommended but i know that certain stuff has been tested for very depressed.

Chit might fuk up your world so much, though. So i dont know

Ive run the entire spectrum too much to believe in determinism
post 1563745161 10-15-2018, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Because how you respond to all of those environmental conditions are purely determined by your genetics.
That is a very bold claim.

Based on what?
If You Don't Like To Talk About Your Feelings, This Might Help...
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=178926621

The Most Heartbreaking Thing That I've Learned About 'The Elite'.
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Bitcoin And 'The Elite' - Why Bitcoin Is Not Revolutionary
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=179820783
post 1563745251 10-15-2018, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
Main culprit for what?

And what do you mean by isolation?



According to Violence Expert James Gilligan's summaries of a number of studies in his bookPreventing Violence(I highly recommend it), the strongest predictor of violence in experiment is an insult - triggering an experience of humiliation.
By isolation i mean being isolated

And humiliation would entail isolation. Within that explicit moment you are being mocked and separated from normalcy. Which isolates you amongst normal society (could be what the other person considers normal though. Which more than likely is normal society)
post 1563745301 10-15-2018, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Because how you respond to all of those environmental conditions are purely determined by your genetics.
psychiatrists hate him

amazin'


a m a z i n'
m
a
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n'

pseudo-intellectualism off the charts ITT

god bless u papi
post 1563745371 10-15-2018, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted By ANumber1⏩
The alternative would force him to confront the reality that he is partly to blame for his circumstances, and that can never happen.
No it's called biology. You started as a single cell. Cells can't think. Cells have genetic information. That information was used to determine how the cell responded to stimuli. External stimmuli from the mother was used to trigger genes that controlled development. Eventually development resulted in a brain which functions a specific way. This cycle of external stimuli triggering hardcoded genetic responses continued and made you the person you are today. There really is no nature vs nurture debate because how you respond to nurture is hardcoded by nature.
post 1563745541 10-15-2018, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted By DirtyDon123⏩
psychiatrists hate him

amazin'


a m a z i n'
m
a
z
i
n'

pseudo-intellectualism off the charts ITT

god bless u papi
I am not trying to discount the importance of behavior. I am positing that behavior always has a physical component to it. That's not pseudoscience. Your brain is an organ, dawg. Last time I checked it was made of cells. You respond to stimuli, and ultimately the way you do is literally genetic. How could it be anything else? Proteins and specific concentrations of them are the way you end up with different traits. Sure, environments can have a huge effect on a person. If you take two identical twins and raise them in separate environments, they will end up different in some ways. But the way they would respond was ultimately genetically determined.
post 1563745581 10-15-2018, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
FYI, it basically has to be genetics in the end. Even if specific environmental triggers were required, the way you react to those triggers was always genetically coded. There is simply no other option. That being said, fixing those triggers and removing them could mean relatively normal development in people who would have otherwise ended up very fuked up.
no real point in separating the two tbh
post 1563745601 10-15-2018, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
No it's called biology. You started as a single cell. Cells can't think. Cells have genetic information. That information was used to determine how the cell responded to stimuli. External stimmuli from the mother was used to trigger genes that controlled development. Eventually development resulted in a brain which functions a specific way. This cycle of external stimuli triggering hardcoded genetic responses continued and made you the person you are today.There really is no nature vs nurture debate because how you respond to nurture is hardcoded by nature.
Best lets all the psychologists and folks in genetic research know this boyo

It's amazing too as the nature argument absolves you of any responsibility for how you've turned out, surely there's no confirmation bias here.
post 1563745711 10-15-2018, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
I am not trying to discount the importance of behavior. I am positing that behavior always has a physical component to it. That's not pseudoscience.Your brain is an organ, dawg. Last time I checked it was made of cells.
a m a z i n'
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post 1563745931 10-15-2018, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted By DirtyDon123⏩
a m a z i n'
m
a
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n'
OK well once again you resort to ad hominem with no actual argument against what I said. Cool.

The argument is really quite simple.

Your make choices and decisions with your brain.
Your brain is made of cells.
All of your cells respond to stimuli via genetically predetermined instructions.

So, that means that you respond to stimuli via genetically predetermined instructions. How could you not?

Some people would attack this and label it reductonist etc, but I have yet to see a real argument against it. Actually to have it any other way requires you to claim at some point that human behavior violates the laws of physics. Take the argument deep enough and you will see that a human is simply a system of particles that exists in the universe. The laws of physics apply to that system the same way.
post 1563745991 10-15-2018, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted By propreffered7⏩
By isolation i mean being isolated
OK, but what were you talking about specifically?

Because I wrote about violence, and also social and personal dysfunction.
And humiliation would entail isolation. Within that explicit moment you are being mocked and separated from normalcy. Which isolates you amongst normal society (could be what the other person considers normal though. Which more than likely is normal society)
A sense of isolation is a factor in humiliation and shame, but even then that isn't the full picture regarding the experience of shame and humiliation, they are more than just an experience of isolation (that's why they are distinct words). Loneliness in and of itself for example, doesn't trigger a violent response - despite that being an experience of isolation.

In James Gilligan's book (and in the video I linked) he talks about men's model's of masculinity influencing some men to violence.(If a man sees masculinity as being superior or tougher than other men, or women, any challenge to their sense of superiority or dominance will be seen a threat. He said that part of his extremely successful intervention in a violent psychiatric prison, was helping men to reexamine their views on masculinity.)

He also talks about the studies showing large income inequality in a society, being a predictor for a rise in violent crime.
If You Don't Like To Talk About Your Feelings, This Might Help...
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=178926621

The Most Heartbreaking Thing That I've Learned About 'The Elite'.
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=178536851

Bitcoin And 'The Elite' - Why Bitcoin Is Not Revolutionary
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=179820783
post 1563746281 10-15-2018, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
OK well once again you resort to ad hominem with no actual argument against what I said. Cool.
No doubt nature and nurture both exist but to be able to prove where one ends and one takes over or where one boundary ends is beyond the scope of your ability. There are far too many variables at play and to tell the difference between what changes are from nurture and which are from nature is beyond the ability of anyone ITT to prove, imo. It's just pseudo-intellectual masturbation
post 1563746311 10-15-2018, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted By DirtyDon123⏩
Best lets all the psychologists and folks in genetic research know this boyo

It's amazing too as the nature argument absolves you of any responsibility for how you've turned out, surely there's no confirmation bias here.
It’s really stupid to blame it all on genes.

If you were raised by a cannibal family that lived in the middle of bumfuk nowhere with no TV or internet, you’d be a cannibal and probably kidnap people and eat them no matter your genes. Nurture > nature
post 1563746481 10-15-2018, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted By DirtyDon123⏩
Best lets all the psychologists and folks in genetic research know this boyo

It's amazing too as the nature argument absolves you of any responsibility for how you've turned out, surely there's no confirmation bias here.
They know. The debate in psychology is over which factors have more influence and could be controlled and changed for better outcomes. You don't seem to get my point for some reason. Psychologists have long known that people think using their brains.
post 1563746551 10-15-2018, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
OK, but what were you talking about specifically?

Because I wrote about violence, and also social and personal dysfunction.



A sense of isolation is a factor in humiliation and shame, but even then that isn't the full picture regarding the experience of shame and humiliation, they are more than just an experience of isolation (that's why they are distinct words). Loneliness in and of itself for example, doesn't trigger a violent response - despite that being an experience of isolation.

In James Gilligan's book (and in the video I linked) he talks about men's model's of masculinity influencing some men to violence.(If a man sees masculinity as being superior or tougher than other men, or women, any challenge to their sense of superiority or dominance will be seen a threat. He said that part of his extremely successful intervention in a violent psychiatric prison, was helping men to reexamine their views on masculinity.)

He also talks about the studies showing large income inequality in a society, being a predictor for a rise in violent crime.
So, you wouldnt classify ER - dude from misc - as lonely?

You think if he had a social circle of friends and good family hed do the same? I dont.

Im quite positive a good motivating factor for that dude was a) hed show people the pain hes in b) hed receive attention for the suffering he endured

And hed let everybody know. So, yes, id very much say that loneliness contributed to his violence.

Alas, we are at the nature vs. Nurture debate
post 1563746591 10-15-2018, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted By Vrykul⏩
It’s really stupid to blame it all on genes.

If you were raised by a cannibal family that lived in the middle of bumfuk nowhere with no TV or internet, you’d be a cannibal and probably kidnap people and eat them no matter your genes. Nurture > nature
Good point, repped
post 1563746861 10-15-2018, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted By DirtyDon123⏩
No doubt nature and nurture both exist but to be able to prove where one ends and one takes over or where one boundary ends is beyond the scope of your ability. There are far too many variables at play and to tell the difference between what changes are from nurture and which are from nature is beyond the ability of anyone ITT to prove, imo. It's just pseudo-intellectual masturbation
The whole point is it doesn't end. Nurture is an interpretation of another type of nature. There is only nature in the end. Like obviously the sequence of events that cues how a lifeform develops matters. It's the entire set of stimuli that will determine which genes are activated and to what degree. It's the reason why you have a specific number of limbs or why you developed with a front and a back, a top and a bottom, etc. We were genetically very capable of just coming out a lump of cells with 2 tops and not developing into a baby at all.
post 1563746951 10-15-2018, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
No it's called biology. You started as a single cell. Cells can't think. Cells have genetic information. That information was used to determine how the cell responded to stimuli. External stimmuli from the mother was used to trigger genes that controlled development. Eventually development resulted in a brain which functions a specific way. This cycle of external stimuli triggering hardcoded genetic responses continued and made you the person you are today. There really is no nature vs nurture debate because how you respond to nurture is hardcoded by nature.
Im curious how a determinist would explain this.

Lets say youre a baby. Or an adolescent or whatever.

Many touch the stove and burn their finger and learn its hot.

Are you stating there was some code that lead them to touch the stove? What happened after?

If it were written in code wouldnt they continually keep touching it since the code said so?
post 1563747041 10-15-2018, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted By Vrykul⏩
It’s really stupid to blame it all on genes.

If you were raised by a cannibal family that lived in the middle of bumfuk nowhere with no TV or internet, you’d be a cannibal and probably kidnap people and eat them no matter your genes. Nurture > nature
But that would be the norm... That's like asking why a kid raised by monkeys since birth in a jungle doesn't speak English and does monkey chit.. I never blamed it all on genes, I said environment and other factors can trigger psychopathic tendencies in a person with a defective brain.. Which explains why the vast majority of people with bad childhoods do not grow up to be psychopaths or evil.. Or vice versa, where some people with good childhoods end up being evil..
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
The whole point is it doesn't end. Nurture is an interpretation of another type of nature. There is only nature in the end. Like obviously the sequence of events that cues how a lifeform develops matters. It's the entire set of stimuli that will determine which genes are activated and to what degree. It's the reason why you have a specific number of limbs or why you developed with a front and a back, a top and a bottom, etc. We were genetically very capable of just coming out a lump of cells with 2 tops and not developing into a baby at all.
Sky is blue

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Amazin'
post 1563747111 10-15-2018, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Because how you respond to all of those environmental conditions are purely determined by your genetics.
You don't think our situational responses can be learned?
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post 1563747231 10-15-2018, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
That is a very bold claim.

Based on what?
Based on the fact that you are made of cells. For whatever reason people seem to ignore this argument and label it as reductionist. It is reductionist, but so what? Cells can't think. A collection of cells functions as a brain. The brain thinks, but the thinking is precisely a process that requires a specific configuration of cells all functioning in their usual genetically predetermined ways to environmental stimuli.
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Originally Posted By SwimToTheMoon⏩
But that would be the norm... That's like asking why a kid raised by monkeys since birth in a jungle doesn't speak English and does monkey chit.. I never blamed it all on genes, I said environment and other factors can trigger psychopathic tendencies in a person with a defective brain.. Which explains why the vast majority of people with bad childhoods do not grow up to be psychopaths or evil.. Or vice versa, where some people with good childhoods end up being evil..
Or not all bad childhoods or abuse are identical, some are less severe, some have positive influences, respite etc. So many variables that are impossible to record and to default to "oh it must be nature that's the difference" is just bad science, it's a lot of assumption in the face of variables that can't be tracked by scientific methods.
post 1563747431 10-15-2018, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted By RedRusty⏩
You don't think our situational responses can be learned?
We definitely learn. But what learning actually is requires cells in your brain to function a specific way. Again, I'll remind you that the cells involved in memory were originally once some very simple cells. Certain genes were switched on for them during development in a predetermined response to signals received. I'm saying on a massive scale, all your response to signals was always a genetically predetermined thing. Of course the responses are complex for an organ as big and complicated as the brain, and we label that as thinking, choice, etc.

I realize this offends people because it removes some measure of illusory control they thought they had over the universe. It should come as no shock to you that your behavior is constrained and ultimately determined by the laws of physics since you are a physical system of particles.

Philosophers hate this, but think about it for 5 s and you will see it can't really be any other way unless you posit the existence of a metaphysical soul that somehow can act on aggregate physical systems and violate the laws of physics. That's pretty contrived if you ask me, but if it makes you feel better, feel free to believe that.
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