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Forum » Wincel still p4p biggest scumbag on here
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Thread: Wincel still p4p biggest scumbag on here

post 1566902481 11-22-2018, 05:46 PM
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LOL men can't be happy without female affection and sex. Most men will start developing crippling depression, anxiety, desperation, delusions and other mental illnesses. It's just how it is, when you are getting none it destroys your mind
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post 1566902591 11-22-2018, 05:49 PM
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Another book, challenging Wincel's notion that callous individualism is justified by observations in nature...







If You Don't Like To Talk About Your Feelings, This Might Help...
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=178926621

The Most Heartbreaking Thing That I've Learned About 'The Elite'.
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=178536851

Bitcoin And 'The Elite' - Why Bitcoin Is Not Revolutionary
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=179820783
post 1566902651 11-22-2018, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted By Ratfish⏩
there is a strange comfort in persistent failure because you can blame forces outside your control. he needs to look in the mirror and keep repeating "i am solely to blame for all of my failures" until it sinks in. the eventual enjoyment from actually achieving something due to merit rather than genetics is incredibly satisfying. sounds like bullchit, but i would not enjoy, for example, pulling hot sloots if i were myself super attractive. playing video games with cheat codes absolutely ruins all of the fun.

that's why i lol hard at all of the chad envy on the misc. you guys have no idea what you're wishing for. not to say that chads are miserable, because they've known nothing else, but rather that your life can be as enjoyable or moreso than theirs if you would simply change your perspective and actually try to achieve things.

life is a series of puzzles. are you too stupid to solve them or not?
You're starting to sound a lot like deadlystriker with your motivational ho hum. You know and I know and the misc knows that you're not ugly. In fact, you're so not ugly that you've got gifs of yourself floating all over this forum.

You've got decent height, regular proportions in clothes (not skinny, not fat), regular features, a decent jaw, full lips and a healthy, toothy grin. If you were actually ugly you wouldn't be pulling hot bitches with just your sense of humor and wagecuck paycheck.

Guarantee you that wincel is one ugly ass mofo compared to you. Probably on Kormo's level. Yeah, go ahead and tell that poor ugly bastard Kormo that it's all in his head.
post 1566903071 11-22-2018, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted By BullyLivesMatta⏩
You're starting to sound a lot like deadlystriker with your motivational ho hum. You know and I know and the misc knows that you're not ugly. In fact, you're so not ugly that you've got gifs of yourself floating all over this forum.

You've got decent height, regular proportions in clothes (not skinny, not fat), regular features, a decent jaw, full lips and a healthy, toothy grin. If you were actually ugly you wouldn't be pulling hot bitches with just your sense of humor and wagecuck paycheck.

Guarantee you that wincel is one ugly ass mofo compared to you. Probably on Kormo's level. Yeah, go ahead and tell that poor ugly bastard Kormo that it's all in his head.
I bet Wincel is a handsome kent and is loling hard at his rustle ability

But yeah lol, gotta lol when some guy is the ugliest son of a bish you ever seen, wasn't socialised properly as a kid, has the voice of a frog... and people are telling him it's all about attitude

How people interact with you is largely based on how you look, and some other things... there have been studies on how people interact with tall people vs manlets, etc, etc

Though in any case, not making the most out of your situation just makes your situation worse than it needs to be... but some people were very unlucky with their roll of the dice and current situation
Fak U say? Cheeky kent ya, i'll fakin fak ya, ya lil sloot
post 1566903651 11-22-2018, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
IMO... Take the 'red pill/MGTOW' philosophy, and strip it down to it's bare roots, and you have Wincel's outlook.

A lotof guys on the misc (and the 'red pill' crowd on the internet) justify their value and ethics solely by using Evolutionary psychology (it's simply biology that X should behave this way), which is one step away from biological reductionism and Wincel's worldview.

It doesn't surprise me that pure materialism (mixed with Western individualism) is in growing popularity (ie. the notion that life is only about sex, reproduction, social status, and acquiring resources).
The red pill is important to understand, but it's not all there is. It allows you to see the big picture, but you're supposed to use it to your advantage, not as a justification for quitting.

I think there's a link between the sort of bitter inceldom that is common online, and the explosion of narcissism in the past 20 years or so. I don't have the details worked out, but it seems some of the most insistent FAs on here, are also the ones with the highest standards and who are also most offended at the idea of lowering their own standards so as not to be alone. It's almost as if they cannot reconcile that they - out of everyone else around - are the one women are not choosing. This was the supreme gentleman's problem and I think it's much more common. I don't know that it applies to wincel, but from what I have observed, the ones who deal with rejection the worst are the ones with the highest opinions of themselves.
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post 1566903771 11-22-2018, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted By MiscInformed⏩
The red pill is important to understand, but it's not all there is. It allows you to see the big picture, but you're supposed to use it to your advantage, not as a justification for quitting.

I think there's a link between the sort of bitter inceldom that is common online, and the explosion of narcissism in the past 20 years or so. I don't have the details worked out, but it seems some of the most insistent FAs on here, are also the ones with the highest standards and who are also most offended at the idea of lowering their own standards so as not to be alone. It's almost as if they cannot reconcile that they - out of everyone else around - are the one women are not choosing. This was the supreme gentleman's problem and I think it's much more common. I don't know that it applies to wincel, but from what I have observed, the ones who deal with rejection the worst are the ones with the highest opinions of themselves.
Woah woah woah a lot of incels and men in general don't even approach so that isn't always true. Plus a lot of people are never around women lol
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post 1566904241 11-22-2018, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted By Rebel012⏩
Your mechanistic worldview was debunked by Einstein's theories. But aside from that, the argument you're espousing isn't even valid from an evolutionary standpoint. Homo-sapiens and other primates evolved in cooperative groups as social animals, thus the image of some Robinson Crusoe figure roaming the plains competing with other isolated, atomistic individuals is a pure myth. In fact, some biologists theorize that in the absence of cooperation consciousness and language would have never developed. In other words, people as individuals simply can't be abstracted from communities and the whole species like you're attempting to do, at least not from an evolutionary standpoint.

Again, this is all cope. You wouldn't have this worldview if you weren't an isolated, miserable human being.
?What does general relativity have to do with my "mechanistic worldview"? Natural selection acts on individuals bro, not groups. Of course, we have cooperation and even some altruistic behavior. Our group behavior was a strength. But ultimately, we each do selfishly compete to pass on our genes. That's like the first thing you learn about natural selection.

You muppets are now strawmanning my position. Clearly, altruism, empathy, etc exist and are adaptive human behaviors. You still compete as individuals, and you are still subject to natural selection.

BTW, beta as phuc, natural selection acts on individuals, not groups. That's because fitness is defined for individuals. Now, perhaps you could define a collective fitness for a group, and talk about that, but that isn't the same thing. The system moves toward local optima in a fitness landscape of potential solutions to the evolutionary problem. Group selection as you describe it has been widely rejected by biologists because it doesn't really seem consistent with what is observed in nature.
post 1566904391 11-22-2018, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted By eod8989⏩
Woah woah woah a lot of incels and men in general don't even approach so that isn't always true. Plus a lot of people are never around women lol
They don't approach because they are afraid of rejection.

They are afraid of rejection because it contradicts the high opinion they have of themselves.

They have a high opinion of themselves because they are narcissists (or have some narcissist traits).

You could also have really low self-esteem and that could be the reason why you don't approach, but those people don't become bitter incels. They know they can fix their confidence problem and get better results... they just don't know how.

A narcissist will never see that they are the problem. It'll always be something outside of their control or that women are unable to see how special they are.
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post 1566904451 11-22-2018, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted By MiscInformed⏩
The red pill is important to understand, but it's not all there is. It allows you to see the big picture, but you're supposed to use it to your advantage, not as a justification for quitting.
I agree, that the red pill perspective is piece of the puzzle, but I was just emphasizing that I've seena lotof guys basing their life goals, values, and ethics via evo psychology, mixed with (as you point out) narcissistic values..
I think there's a link between the sort of bitter inceldom that is common online, and the explosion of narcissism in the past 20 years or so. I don't have the details worked out, but it seems some of the most insistent FAs on here, are also the ones with the highest standards and who are also most offended at the idea of lowering their own standards so as not to be alone. It's almost as if they cannot reconcile that they - out of everyone else around - are the one women are not choosing. This was the supreme gentleman's problem and I think it's much more common. I don't know that it applies to wincel, but from what I have observed, the ones who deal with rejection the worst are the ones with the highest opinions of themselves.
I'll be interested in reading your posts in the future, as you work this out your thoughts. I agree that there is probably a link.

I also think that violence prevention expert and psychiatrist James Gilligan is right, when he says that psychologically and physically abusive people (eg. bitter trolling campaigns against women, trolling to try to induce depression and low self esteem in others) are fuelled their own chronic sense of humiliation and shame, and a notion of 'masculinity = dominance/superiority'.

Being a 'real man' is tied in to a lot of things, and I think sex and dating is one of those ways that men (rightly or wrongly) have their identity as men affirmed.

I also think that many incels see their lack of dating and sex life as humiliating and shame. Which can be difficult feelings to process, so (like Gillan proposes) people often try to regain a sense of significance/worth through dominating others (psychologically and/or physically), or revenge (eg. "Women have caused me pain, so I'm going to cause them pain. ","People have been cruel to me, so I'm going to be cruel to people.")

I know that I've struggled with those feelings, from time to time (I postponed dating seriously, until I got my financial situation/life sorted out... Its been a long time now.)

I was going to make a thread about this video the other day, but went out before I could.

I think it's a entertaining vid exploring the sub-culture of incels, but I especially think that from 22 minutes is really insightful into the self-abuse that a lot of incels seem to engage in...

(22:00 onwards...)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD2briZ6fB0
If You Don't Like To Talk About Your Feelings, This Might Help...
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=178926621

The Most Heartbreaking Thing That I've Learned About 'The Elite'.
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=178536851

Bitcoin And 'The Elite' - Why Bitcoin Is Not Revolutionary
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=179820783
post 1566904591 11-22-2018, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
That's like the first thing you learn about natural selection..
No, you learn that evolution is about speciation - the survival and reproduction of species genetics.

The 'big picture' perspective of the theory of evolution is about species, not individuals.
If You Don't Like To Talk About Your Feelings, This Might Help...
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=178926621

The Most Heartbreaking Thing That I've Learned About 'The Elite'.
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=178536851

Bitcoin And 'The Elite' - Why Bitcoin Is Not Revolutionary
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=179820783
post 1566904751 11-22-2018, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
?What does general relativity have to do with my "mechanistic worldview"? Natural selection acts on individuals bro, not groups. Of course, we have cooperation and even some altruistic behavior. Our group behavior was a strength. But ultimately, we each do selfishly compete to pass on our genes. That's like the first thing you learn about natural selection.

You muppets are now strawmanning my position. Clearly, altruism, empathy, etc exist and are adaptive human behaviors. You still compete as individuals, and you are still subject to natural selection.
You're taking Newtonian mechanics and trying to impose it onto human relations and behaviors. Regarding natural selection, it was one of the mechanisms through which evolution worked, the others being drift, migration, mutation. What you aren't taking into account is that the survival of individuals is inextricably linked to the survival of groups in many cases. This remains true even in certain parts of the animal kingdom. A lion separated from the pride will often die of hunger or sickness for example. You're attempting to justify your brand of nihilism by appealing to a valid theory that was never meant to justify such a position. As I've said, it doesn't even support your arguments. In fact, I would argue that much of your worldview stems from the harsh reality of modern society, where individuals are more and more alienated, and not from any kind of natural state of nature.
post 1566904821 11-22-2018, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
No, you learn that evolution is about speciation - the survival and reproduction of species genetics.

The 'big picture' perspective of the theory of evolution is about species, not individuals.
Evolution acts on populations. Natural selection acts on individuals bro. Open your biology book and look.
post 1566904971 11-22-2018, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted By MiscInformed⏩
They don't approach because they are afraid of rejection.

They are afraid of rejection because it contradicts the high opinion they have of themselves.

They have a high opinion of themselves because they are narcissists (or have some narcissist traits).

You could also have really low self-esteem and that could be the reason why you don't approach, but those people don't become bitter incels. They know they can fix their confidence problem and get better results... they just don't know how.

A narcissist will never see that they are the problem. It'll always be something outside of their control or that women are unable to see how special they are.
Most people don't approach women it just happens naturally for the vast majority of men.

Not all men are afraid of rejection. I've never been rejected and i've dated 7 women.

I'm tired of all the talk on the misc about how men are just supposed to approach and audition for women when that isn't how the vast majority of people meet.

I do agree that having low self esteem is a huge cause in why incels can't get laid but that doesn't mean they should approach women when 80-90% of men do not approach. There's a better chance approaching will hurt their confidence anyways because the rejection rate would be so high.

Most incels know they can't get women. They know they can't approach and get a girl to stay interested in them that's why they don't try. You can't have success approaching with nothing to work with.

How do you even know how many incels are narcissists? On the reddit sub all the dudes there say they are ugly and not worthy of a gf.
PC specs

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6'2 master race crew
Audiophile crew
Metal crew
Introvert/INTJ crew
German crew
If you aren't getting stronger you aren't getting bigger crew
post 1566904991 11-22-2018, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
?What does general relativity have to do with my "mechanistic worldview"? Natural selection acts on individuals bro, not groups. Of course, we have cooperation and even some altruistic behavior. Our group behavior was a strength.But ultimately, we each do selfishly compete to pass on our genes.That's like the first thing you learn about natural selection.

You muppets are now strawmanning my position. Clearly, altruism, empathy, etc exist and are adaptive human behaviors. You still compete as individuals, and you are still subject to natural selection.
In bold, nope.

Most people live their life by rules (laws, morals, values, ethics). We do not selfishly compete. For example, we do not break up marriages in order to take one man's mate for ourselves. The small percentage that might do this are rightfully seen as sociopaths.

We are not biochemical machines acting on instinct alone. I think we've had this argument before. We are more than just molecules arranged in a certain way.
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post 1566905041 11-22-2018, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩


Free copy of the book, at the link below...

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/libr...r-of-evolution

Excerpt from the book...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnltUzQLqgw
Thanks for the links bro, adding these to my list. What's interesting is that even if everything Evolutionary Psychology predicts is true, people like Wincel can't grasp the fact that theory was never meant to serve as a blueprint to live your life. The school of thought attempts to explain certain behaviors and tendencies, it's not some moral code.
post 1566905091 11-22-2018, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted By Rebel012⏩
You're taking Newtonian mechanics and trying to impose it onto human relations and behaviors. Regarding natural selection, it was one of the mechanisms through which evolution worked, the others being drift, migration, mutation. What you aren't taking into account is that the survival of individuals is inextricably linked to the survival of groups in many cases. This remains true even in certain parts of the animal kingdom. A lion separated from the pride will often die of hunger or sickness for example. You're attempting to justify your brand of nihilism by appealing to a valid theory that was never meant to justify such a position. As I've said, it doesn't even support your arguments. In fact, I would argue that much of your worldview stems from the harsh reality of modern society, where individuals are more and more alienated, and not from any kind of natural state of nature.
Of course group behavior exists. Again, read what I said. You are still in competition, and selection still acts on individuals. And what does Newtonian Mechanics have to do with this? What? You realize you can have a system in which each individual is in selfish competition and still have group behavior, right? That's essentially how it happens. It will occur wherever group behavior also benefits individuals. It's no coincidence that altruistic behavior is more commonly seen in strongly related individuals.
post 1566905201 11-22-2018, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted By MiscInformed⏩
We are more than just molecules arranged in a certain way.
That sounds nice, but how do you know that? There is no scientific reason to believe we are.
post 1566905301 11-22-2018, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted By eod8989⏩
Most people don't approach women it just happens naturally for the vast majority of men.

Not all men are afraid of rejection. I've never been rejected and i've dated 7 women.

I'm tired of all the talk on the misc about how men are just supposed to approach and audition for women when that isn't how the vast majority of people meet.

I do agree that having low self esteem is a huge cause in why incels can't get laid but that doesn't mean they should approach women when 80-90% of men do not approach. There's a better chance approaching will hurt their confidence anyways because the rejection rate would be so high.

Most incels know they can't get women. They know they can't approach and get a girl to stay interested in them that's why they don't try. You can't have success approaching with nothing to work with.
Walking up and saying "Hi" is an approach. No woman is going to slap you for that. If she's not interested you'll know in a minute or two. If she is, you'll know that too. Why is this considered rocket science by your generation? If you can smile and make silly jokes and tell stories and know how to recognize and follow social cues, then you can flirt. If you can flirt, then you can attract women. It's as easy as that. If those skills are difficult for you, then you'll have to practice them, but the same goes with learning the guitar or piano. Sometimes, you have to have a couple of short, flirty conversations with a girl over a period of time for her to notice your personality. Other times, you'll click right away. If that all seems like more effort than you want to put into it, then congrats! You're not an incel, you're a volcel.
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post 1566905491 11-22-2018, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Of course group behavior exists. Again, read what I said. You are still in competition, and selection still acts on individuals. And what does Newtonian Mechanics have to do with this? What? You realize you can have a system in which each individual is in selfish competition and still have group behavior, right? That's essentially how it happens. It will occur wherever group behavior also benefits individuals. It's no coincidence that altruistic behavior is more commonly seen in strongly related individuals.
My point is that you are NOT always in competition, and competition is not what always leads to the optimal outcome from an evolutionary standpoint. You are simply asserting that group behavior will occur where it benefits individuals, but this falls apart when you consider the fact that throughout most of history, and especially during the Pleistocene period when homo-sapiens evolved, individuals did not see themselves as separate from communities. And natural selection is simply one mechanism of evolution, it worked on individuals, but individuals operated in specific environments of population groups. The type of ruthless competition to spread one's genes that you're envisioning never functioned in this pure form outside of the animal kingdom.
post 1566906181 11-22-2018, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
That sounds nice, but how do you know that? There is no scientific reason to believe we are.
How do you know we aren't?

And no, the burden of proof is not on me and no, this is not me asking you to prove a negative. Contrary to what you've been taught, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that we don't simply blink into nothingness at the moment of death. You can't test this with the scientific method, so yes, there is no proof, nor could there be, but there are fingerprints of a divine spark all around us. In great art, and music, and scientific insight, and many other areas, we have achieved things well beyond the capabilities of simple "evolved apes".
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2022 New Year's Resolution: Randomly neg TheScapeGOAT for lulz.
post 1566906211 11-22-2018, 06:49 PM
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#142
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Scumbag seems a little harsh. With internet anonymity people say things they would never say irl. Maybe the misc is his only place to vent. It's not that srs
Not in the AM
post 1566906361 11-22-2018, 06:51 PM
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#143
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But its some famous person lol, who cares. If it was another miscer then it would be in that territory.
post 1566906591 11-22-2018, 06:56 PM
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#144
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
Another book, challenging Wincel's notion that callous individualism is justified by observations in nature...

Here's the real book that explains why wincel is the way he is


See Shakebrah's sig
post 1566908091 11-22-2018, 07:22 PM
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#145
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Same thing when Anthony Bourdain died and GravityLee posted in every thread saying stuff like “good riddance he was a liberal cuck”
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post 1566909091 11-22-2018, 07:43 PM
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#146
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I like Wincel. He's definitely got issues, but it sounds like his childhood has a lot to do with that, especially reading the below. That just makes me so sad.
Originally Posted By wasp9166⏩
you forgot



My mom drunkenly tried to give me a handjob once...srs. It was honestly the most fuked up thing that has ever happened to me, and I could never trust anyone again. She was mentally ill, but it was still the straw that broke the camel's back...she had a long history of being abusive, but I had never expected her to do anything like that. After that, she pretended she never did it too. We never talked about it. This was the same woman who taught me how to read and wiped my ass as a child. You can laugh about it, but if this actually happened to OP, then it really feels like the most profound betrayal you can ever feel. There is no bond stronger than that of a mother to her child. To witness that bond you shared deteriorate before your own eyes is the most heartbreaking thing you can ever imagine. So keep laughing, *******s. Child sexual abuse is not a joke. I bet you there are a lot of dudes on here who have been molested by their mothers who won't talk about it. There is a huge stigma, and male victims of sexual assault rarely ever speak about it. But it happens, and it is still fuked up and emotionally devastating. Maybe it's not as bad as a dad raping a daughter because of the nature of childbirth, abortion, etc. But it is still extremely fuked up and you clowns laughing about it will never get it. This is the sort of chit that makes people into murderers if not addressed. Do not blame yourself, OP.




guy needs legit therapy
Also, I'm very confused. Who died???
~ In a world where you can be anything, be kind ~
post 1566909181 11-22-2018, 07:45 PM
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#147
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Originally Posted By Rebel012⏩
My point is that you are NOT always in competition, and competition is not what always leads to the optimal outcome from an evolutionary standpoint. You are simply asserting that group behavior will occur where it benefits individuals, but this falls apart when you consider the fact that throughout most of history, and especially during the Pleistocene period when homo-sapiens evolved, individuals did not see themselves as separate from communities. And natural selection is simply one mechanism of evolution, it worked on individuals, but individuals operated in specific environments of population groups. The type of ruthless competition to spread one's genes that you're envisioning never functioned in this pure form outside of the animal kingdom.
...Group selection is not well accepted by biologists for a reason dude...I don't disagree that group behavior is an important part of human life. But, yes, the selection itself is still acting on individuals. You are in competition as individuals. The ruthless competition to spread one's genes never went away. Humans ARE animals...
post 1566909411 11-22-2018, 07:49 PM
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#148
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Originally Posted By MiscInformed⏩
How do you know we aren't?

And no, the burden of proof is not on me and no, this is not me asking you to prove a negative. Contrary to what you've been taught, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that we don't simply blink into nothingness at the moment of death. You can't test this with the scientific method, so yes, there is no proof, nor could there be, but there are fingerprints of a divine spark all around us. In great art, and music, and scientific insight, and many other areas, we have achieved things well beyond the capabilities of simple "evolved apes".
There is good reason to believe you are a system of molecules. The most obvious evidence is what happens to people when specific parts of their brains are damaged. They change as people. We have good reason to believe people think with their brains. You are straight up making up stuff and talking about things for which you have no proof. Humans are literally apes.
post 1566909991 11-22-2018, 08:07 PM
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#149
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what the hell is going on in this thread
post 1566910751 11-22-2018, 08:25 PM
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#150
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Originally Posted By MiscInformed⏩
They don't approach because they are afraid of rejection.

They are afraid of rejection because it contradicts the high opinion they have of themselves.

They have a high opinion of themselves because they are narcissists (or have some narcissist traits).

You could also have really low self-esteem and that could be the reason why you don't approach, but those people don't become bitter incels. They know they can fix their confidence problem and get better results... they just don't know how.

A narcissist will never see that they are the problem. It'll always be something outside of their control or that women are unable to see how special they are.
That bolded bit is spot on.

Some of this seems a little twisted though.

A narcissist (actual personality disorder) actually doesn't feel good about themselves on the inside. They project a Mr. Wonderful persona to the world and will reject any data that doesn't support the validity of that persona.

- someone who has a negative opinion about their ability to form relationships could be a pessimist (won't try to change because they believe it is pointless) or a realist (recognizes reality and will try to change what they can change)

- someone who has a negative opinion about THEMSELF (lack of self esteem), but projects outwardly that they are wonderful is more likely to evade responsibility for their lack of success with relationships by making the failure about the opposite sex vs. about their own inabilities or unreasonable expectations because accepting responsibility would be damaging to their false public persona

And, no, that doesn't mean that every guy here that complains that women suck is an actual narcissist. Venting is normal. Constant whining and deflecting gets fishy.
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