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Forum » How much better would Western Society be without Rap Music????
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Thread: How much better would Western Society be without Rap Music????

post 1571668041 01-20-2019, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted By hoganrulz⏩
which leads us back to how smart phones and the internet are not your friend. If you look at how these companies influence you its in a marketing sense, for example the whole issue with Alexa recording what youre saying and then you being hit with ads regarding what youre saying.This kind of influence is massively different compared to a rapper saying something like ''flipping yayo put it in her butt in my yacht ooweee''
Yep... And that kind of influence still has decades of research behind.

Here was the beginning...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q-3qwEDyPM

I would strongly advise (if you haven't already done so) researching into the advertising industry pre-internet.

The data and sales records they amassed, show that images, music, and language does influence behaviour.

Again, that is pre internet.

Ad videos on TV, 'jingles' on radio, billboards, etc... Advertisers have the data and records sales to show that they can and do influence people.
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post 1571668571 01-20-2019, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
Yep... And that kind of influence still has decades of research behind.

Here was the beginning...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q-3qwEDyPM

I would strongly advise (if you haven't already done so) researching into the advertising industry pre-internet.

The data and sales records they amassed, show that images, music, and language does influence behaviour.

Again, that is pre internet.

Ad videos on TV, 'jingles' on radio, billboards, etc... Advertisers have the data and records sales to show that they can and do influence people.
Ok, so whats the correlation between the ramblings of a rapper on a song compared to trillion dollar multinationals releasing a product with decades of sales research behind it?

If you're conflating rap music to that, then you have to admit its not the rappers, its the multinationals behind the rappers, as in, distribution, atlantic/sony so on and so forth.
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post 1571668611 01-20-2019, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted By SmackBoat⏩
smacking inspiration of genius, one measure of this piss is more ass of intelligence than any piece of music produced in the last 20 yrs, from beginning to end. 4:33 -5:03 will set your ass on fire in piss

Liszt is so underrated

Forever mirin, Smackbrah. GOAT poster 2018 + 2019
post 1571669211 01-20-2019, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted By hoganrulz⏩
Ok, so whats the correlation between the ramblings of a rapper on a song compared to trillion dollar multinationals releasing a product with decades of sales research behind it?
I wasn't referring to the product, I was referring to the medium of advertising.

Multi-million/billion dollar record labels, make marketing campaigns to promote rappers. It's not that different. They literally use marketing techniques, to market rappers.

(I literally remember watching Nas appearing on a Saturday morning children't TV show, here in the UK, to promote his album. Nas didn't have to promote his "We're the flyest gangstas" BS to children, and the executives didn't have to put him on a children's TV show to try to market his music to kids.)

Music, images, and language affect behaviour - like advertising shows.

Rap music and videos, are repetitive music, images, and lyrics.
If you're conflating rap music to that, then you have to admit its not the rappers, its the multinationals behind the rappers, as in, distribution, atlantic/sony so on and so forth.
Why do you keep trying to make things either/or?

It can be both.

I don't deny the rappers agency and therefore responsibility for the things they say and do (I don't know you keep doing that, tbh), and I don't deny the executives agency and therefore responsibility for what they say and do?
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post 1571669941 01-20-2019, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
I wasn't referring to the product, I was referring to the medium of advertising.

Multi-million/billion dollar record labels, make marketing campaigns to promote rappers. It's not that different. They literally use marketing techniques, to market rappers.

(I literally remember watching Nas appearing on a Saturday morning children't TV show, here in the UK, to promote his album. Nas didn't have to promote his "We're the flyest gangstas" BS to children, and the executives didn't have to put him on a children's TV show to try to market his music to kids.)

Music, images, and language affect behaviour - like advertising shows.

Rap music and videos, are repetitive music, images, and lyrics.
So we go back to parenting children. If you had a 4 yo and he was watching a kids show and a fooking rapper came on the show, you'd change the channel. I understand that advertisers put in serious research and money to make campaigns successful, but rap isnt going to make a sane 40 year old start selling drugs. It's going to influence children, I dont deny it can influence children, I refuse to put the blame entirely on business men because theyre motivated by profit. Parents should know better, now if theyre too busy popping pills because of ads theyve seen then theyre no better than impressionable children.

Why do you keep trying to make things either/or?

It can be both.

I don't deny the rappers agency and therefore responsibility for the things they say and do (I don't know you keep doing that, tbh), and I don't deny the executives agency and therefore responsibility for what they say and do?
because how can you assume a rapper has come from a poor background with little to no education yet be a mastermind in making children continue a cycle of disaster in ghettos? It doesn't work like that. You sign a record deal for 3 albums, you release one that blows you up, the other two are about whores, money and drugs because thats what sells and thats what youre told to rap about. This is documented, this isnt a conspiracy.
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post 1571671431 01-20-2019, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted By hoganrulz⏩
So we go back to parenting children. If you had a 4 yo and he was watching a kids show and a fooking rapper came on the show, you'd change the channel.
The children's showed catered to pre teens and mid teens.

The are normally left alone, and I doubt many adults would even think that a man who talks about murder, and 'being a fly gansta' would be on a TV show for pre teens and teens on a saturday morning.

That was also only one example, of a rap company using standard marketing techniques to appeal to a wider audience.
I understand that advertisers put in serious research and money to make campaigns successful, but rap isnt going to make a sane 40 year old start selling drugs. It's going to influence children, I dont deny it can influence children, I refuse to put the blame entirely on business men because theyre motivated by profit.
They have no agency, and therefore responsibility, for what they do because they are motivated by profit?
Parents should know better, now if theyre too busy popping pills because of ads theyve seen then theyre no better than impressionable children.
I've already gone over why I disagree that parent from low income and violent neighbourhoods, are the only ones to blame for their children engaging in behaviour and music commonly found in low income violent neighbourhoods.

I believe it's a multifaceted problem (and rap is one part of that problem), you obviously do not.
because how can you assume a rapper has come from a poor background with little to no education yet be a mastermind in making children continue a cycle of disaster in ghettos?
You keep pretending I've written things that I haven't.

I have never said that a rapper is the same as marketing executive, I have said repeatedly that I hold rappers responsible for their music content.

You do not hold them responsible, for some reason.

By time they become millionaires or multi-millionaires, with various business ventures, then they obviously are aware of things like marketing and the impact that marketing has on perception and behaviour. They can - if the choose to - be aware of the impact their music has on the behaviour of others.

Also, a lot of rappers are parents, who ensure that their kids grow up far away from a ghetto and the gang lifestyle, yet they still rap about it to kids growing up in ghettos who don't have parents with a lot of money, living in affluent communities, professional bodyguards, etc.
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post 1571672381 01-20-2019, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
The children's showed catered to pre teens and mid teens.

The are normally left alone, and I doubt many adults would even think that a man who talks about murder, and 'being a fly gansta' would be on a TV show for pre teens and teens on a saturday morning.

That was also only one example, of a rap company using standard marketing techniques to appeal to a wider audience.
so you would or wouldnt change the channel?
They have no agency, and therefore responsibility, for what they do because they are motivated by profit?
Well, we dont live in a dictatorship, we live in a free capitalistic society. It's up to you to educate yourself and your children to the ills of the world, not leave it up to johnny badass whose just gone double platinum to teach your kids how to become men.
I've already gone over why I disagree that parent from low income and violent neighbourhoods, are the only ones to blame for their children engaging in behaviour and music commonly found in low income violent neighbourhoods.

I believe it's a multifaceted problem (and rap is one part of that problem), you obviously do not.
You're wrong there, I agree it's multi faceted, I just dont agree rap is one of those causing the problem. It's compounding it, sure, but theres like 8 things prior to exposure to rap or television or internet that should be dealt with first before it even enters the fray. Education being the biggest, which leads to better parenting, which leads to children who arent troubled, which leads to parents who dont need drugs and alcohol to cope, which leads to savings, which over generations leads to generational wealth.

And I already know what you're going to say, tell me, since youve mentioned you were born to parents on welfare, how much narcotics have you sold in your life since im assuming youve been exposed to rap at a young age. What? No? You've never sold drugs? Why was that you think? Parents, possibly?
a lot of rappers are parents, who ensure that their kids grow up far away from a ghetto and the gang lifestyle, yet they still rap about it to kids growing up in ghettos who don't have parents with a lot of money, living in affluent communities, professional bodyguards, etc.
yes, because its not someones elses dad's responsibility to raise your son. Hustlers will hustle, if you leave £5 on the floor, someone will pick it up, it's up to you to not drop money on the floor, rather than expect everyone to look out for you and alert you to the fact youve dropped money.
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post 1571729551 01-21-2019, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted By hoganrulz⏩
so you would or wouldnt change the channel?
My point was... Most parents don't sit down with their under 18 year olds, and watch TV with them everytime that they watch TV.

I wouldn't have expected a TV show for pre-teens and mid teens to feature a 'gansta rapper' promoting his violent and drug filled music. (At the time I thought it was cool, because I listened to Nas. As an adult, I shake my head thinking about it.) I doubt any adults would have thought that at the time.

Again, that was only one example.

[quote[Well, we dont live in a dictatorship, we live in a free capitalistic society. It's up to you to educate yourself and your children to the ills of the world, not leave it up to johnny badass whose just gone double platinum to teach your kids how to become men.[/quote]

I really don't know why you brought up the dictatorship thing.

In the market, a person or company can become socially responsible, regarding the products and marketing. There doesn't have to be any state intervention, for a person or company to stop producing violent rap music, which is a toxic influence upon kids.

You seem to create a false dichotomy... Either tyranny or have a complete lasseiz faire attitude to music promote violent career criminality.

I'll make an analogy...

Asking someone not to swear at you is not tyranny.

Demanding that someone get thrown in prison for swearing, arguably is.

What I'm asking (and many other do) is for rapper to take responsiblity for the toxic messages they are promoting, and to make better music. It's possible, there are many notable rappers throughout the history of rap who aren't making music about violent career criminality.

They choose not to do.

[QUOTE]You're wrong there, I agree it's multi faceted,[/QUOTE]Fair enough, I'm wrong.

[QUOTE]I just dont agree rap is one of those causing the problem. It's compounding it, sure, but theres like 8 things prior to exposure to rap or television or internet that should be dealt with first before it even enters the fray. Education being the biggest, which leads to better parenting, which leads to children who arent troubled, which leads to parents who dont need drugs and alcohol to cope, which leads to savings, which over generations leads to generational wealth.[/QUOTE]In the US... At educated low income populace, is likely not going to happen. Due to the way higher education is funded. That's capitalism (well, US capitalism).

[QUOTE]And I already know what you're going to say, tell me, since youve mentioned you were born to parents on welfare, how much narcotics have you sold in your life since im assuming youve been exposed to rap at a young age. What? No? You've never sold drugs? Why was that you think? Parents, possibly?[/QUOTE]Wasn't my parents.

I think it was moving to another part of the country to live in an extended family home, into far better socio-economic circumstances.[i](Honestly, one of the things that annoys me about people where I live, is the amount of them who try to imitate ghetto life, and where I live is not a ghetto. It is considered one of the worst areas in my region, but it's phucking nothing compared to growing up on welfare in London.)[/i]

Also, I went to school with some of the people who went on to become drug dealers - and quite frankly - I was bullied by them, so I knew I wasn't accepted in that 'world' - and I already knew the kind of person I would have to become to live in that world (namely, at the least, being a good hand to hand fighter).

Though my friend who was also bullied by them, when he left school spent some years 'toughening himself up' and went on to become a violent person - assaulting and mugging people, and selling drugs. (He changed, after a while.)

Another friend who was also bullied, tried to become a 'real nikka' when he left school, and ended up in prison for years after being caught selling drugs.

Also, a number of my family members are drug dealers or drug addicts. Some are in and out of prison.

Dysfunctional social and family environments tend to create dysfunctional people. And the cycle only gets broken with intervention - socially, within the family system, and individually.

I'm a big fan of Lenon Honor on youtube, who speaks a lot about the the kind of intervention that I'm referring to.

[i](Vid from Lenon Honor about hip hop...)[/i]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/7vmJLIscyUE[/youtube]

[URL=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vmJLIscyUE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vmJLIscyUE[/URL]

[QUOTE]yes, because its not someones elses dad's responsibility to raise your son.[/QUOTE]The difference between you and I, I believe, is the belief that words and actions have consequences that influence people, and we are responsible for our influence. Regardless if the people we influence are our children or not.

If I believed that the music I was making was contributing to social dysfunction, I would stop making that music.
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post 1571730051 01-21-2019, 07:57 AM
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2pac was a visionary for his people. So, IMO I'm glad rap is apart of our society.
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post 1571730121 01-21-2019, 07:58 AM
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Hoganrulz, have you seen the documentaryHip-Hop: Beyond Beats & Rhymes?

It's a documentary examining the representations of masculinity in Hip Hop


Here is a condensed5 minuteversion of the documentary...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjxjZe3RhIo


Here is the full version...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAwTnJWPyFg


Something that I want to point out, is that many black men who listen to hip hop simultaneously complain about being stereotyped by non-blacks, despite listening to music and watching music videos the openly promote and show those stereotypes. In fact not conforming to those stereotypes means you're not a 'real nikka'.
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post 1571730131 01-21-2019, 07:58 AM
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Good hip hop is fantastic music. I honestly think the most talented hip hop MCs are among the most talented lyricists in music.

Stuff like mumble rap, on the other hand, seems to actually lower people's IQ, glorifies terrible behavior, and lowers the bar of quality music, all around.

Google "The secret meeting that changed hip hop." Sure, it reads like the first 10 minutes of a bogus conspiracy thriller film. But if it is true, I wouldn't be remotely surprised. I'd be more surprised if something like this DIDN'T happen. I just don't think it all went down like an Eyes Wide Shut orgy scene.
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Originally Posted By manletstrength⏩
2pac was a visionary for his people. So, IMO I'm glad rap is apart of our society.
I wouldn't call him a visionary, especially his last few albums. He went full blown 'gangsta'.
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post 1571730321 01-21-2019, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
I wouldn't call him a visionary, especially his last few albums. He went full blown 'gangsta'.
After he joined death row records was when he went "gangsta". Before that he'd rap about poverty and blacks being scrutinized. He wanted the best for his people.
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post 1571730351 01-21-2019, 08:01 AM
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if we are going the hip-hop route might as well go the TV route, the video game route, etc.

the toxic culture that is promoted in some of the hip-hop is a small piece of the puzzle


bigger issue is poverty, single-parent households, kids born out of wedlock, people having kids too young, etc.

If these things could be at least half solved you would not be seeing most of the degeneracy you may be accustomed to seeing or hearing.


brb hip-hop made me strap an AK, deal coke and commit drivebys
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Originally Posted By sooby⏩
if we are going the hip-hop route might as well go the TV route, the video game route, etc.

the toxic culture that is promoted in some of the hip-hop is a small piece of the puzzle


bigger issue is poverty, single-parent households, kids born out of wedlock, people having kids too young, etc.

If these things could be at least half solved you would not be seeing most of the degeneracy you may be accustomed to seeing or hearing.


brb hip-hop made me strap an AK, deal coke and commit drivebys
This?

This whole topic has been done before tho. Elvis and Rock and Roll, the hippie movement, heavy metal etc. This isn't some new trending topic that a subset of music is somehow destroying our society. There will always be some autistic dude or overprotective parent who cries over music destroying children
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Originally Posted By Jaydawg08⏩
This?

This whole topic has been done before tho. Elvis and Rock and Roll, the hippie movement, heavy metal etc. This isn't some new trending topic that a subset of music is somehow destroying our society. There will always be some autistic dude or overprotective parent who cries over music destroying children
Such as OP. Huge *******.
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Originally Posted By manletstrength⏩
After he joined death row records was when he went "gangsta"..
His 2nd album, Strictly 4 my Nikkaz, had gangsta rap songs.

He wasn't a purely conscious rapper prior to Death Row. He'd always talked about 'Thug Life'.

He was no Marvin Gaye (ie. The What's Going ON Album.)
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Originally Posted By sooby⏩
brb hip-hop made me strap an AK, deal coke and commit drivebys
No, but it reifornces the conversations and interactions that some people have with people who are encouraging them to; strap and AK, deal coke, and commit drivebys.

Imagine a kid growing up seeing gang members, the gang lifestyle, and having family members involved in those things.

As they being to get older, conversations in their social circle turn to things like drug, violence, etc.

People begin to ask them if they 'hold something' for them, or if they want to 'make some money', or if they want to go somewhere with them to phuck somebody up (or they could spring that on you, when you are in the car with them).

Then they are also listening to music glorifying things like; strap and AK, deal coke, and commit drivebys.

For lurkers... This kind of happens to teens, I promise you. A good UK movie that shows this, is called Kidulthood.






Noone is claiming it's as simple as someone playing a song, and then a person like a robot going out and doing all things in a song.

A low level example of rap's influence is twerking.

Everyone, from ghetto girls, to rich girls were phuckin twerking due to the popularity of rap music. That's how much of an influence it can have.
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post 1571735071 01-21-2019, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
No, but it reifornces the conversations and interactions that some people have with people who are encouraging them to; strap and AK, deal coke, and commit drivebys.

Imagine a kid growing up seeing gang members, the gang lifestyle, and having family members involved in those things.

As they being to get older, conversations in their social circle turn to things like drug, violence, etc.

People begin to ask them if they 'hold something' for them, or if they want to 'make some money', or if they want to go somewhere with them to phuck somebody up (or they could spring that on you, when you are in the car with them).

Then they are also listening to music glorifying things like; strap and AK, deal coke, and commit drivebys.

For lurkers... This kind of happens to teens, I promise you. A good UK movie that shows this, is called Kidulthood.






Noone is claiming it's as simple as someone playing a song, and then a person like a robot going out and doing all things in a song.

A low level example of rap's influence is twerking.

Everyone, from ghetto girls, to rich girls were phuckin twerking due to the popularity of rap music. That's how much of an influence it can have.
and again, it isn't the music's fault or a significant factor of what drives people to do these things.

a kid could watch dragon ball z and think it's okay to start fights with people, a kid could fkn interpret any number of different situations and experiences and turn it into something negative. They don't need music to do that. They need two parents who aren't complete fuktards to teach them what is right and what is wrong. A kid with terrible parents, in a single-household and in poverty are more likely to grow fuked up regardless of the music they listen to.

And in your example, no chit if a kid is surrounded by family members who are about that life that they will probably be more inclined to follow in their footsteps. Don't need music for that either. Everything you literally just mentioned just boils down to raising your kid right and not poor/in poor areas.

You just said that nobody is claiming its as simple as somebody playing a song then the person like a robot is going out and doing these things. But then in your example you literally pointed out an example of ghetto girls twerking because they presumably heard it from a song. Kids phucking do Fortnite dances because they saw it while playing Fortnite. Kids aren't shooting up blocks and dealing coke because they heard it in a song.

If people want to single out rap music as the culprit, at least they shouldn't be hypocrites and point out numerous other things.
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post 1571736111 01-21-2019, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted By sooby⏩
and again, it isn't the music's fault or a significant factor of what drives people to do these things.
Music is a significant part of a culture. Do you disagree?
And in your example, no chit if a kid is surrounded by family members who are about that life that they will probably be more inclined to follow in their footsteps. Don't need music for that either. Everything you literally just mentioned just boils down to raising your kid right and not poor/in poor areas.
No, it's also about social environment (eg culture), not just family environment.

Music has a big influence in a given culture. It can introduce or reinforce things into a given culture. Do you disagree?
You just said that nobody is claiming its as simple as somebody playing a song then the person like a robot is going out and doing these things. But then in your example you literally pointed out an example of ghetto girls twerking because they presumably heard it from a song.
In context. (ie. ever sentence in my thread, apart from the one about twerking) I was referring to gangsta rap.

Twerking is non criminal and low risk behaviour, it can be imitated without serious nwgative consequences, on self or others.
Kids phucking do Fortnite dances because they saw it while playing Fortnite. Kids aren't shooting up blocks and dealing coke because they heard it in a song.
I already responded to that in my last post.
If people want to single out rap music as the culprit, at least they shouldn't be hypocrites and point out numerous other things.
I have.
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post 1571736241 01-21-2019, 09:34 AM
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Totally. Much better off with old white men biting bat heads off .

Rap is the biggest / most influential genre in the world. Get over it kids!!!


Gangs/inner city violence existed well before rap music. That’s a convo you guys aren’t smart enough to have, though
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post 1571736581 01-21-2019, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted By Godyssey⏩
Gangs/inner city violence existed well before rap music.
Do you think that Gangsta rap is going to help to stop it, or help to continue it?
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
Music is a significant part of a culture. Do you disagree?
That's a subjective answer at it's very best and depends how you define culture. And if we are talking about "American" culture I am inclined to say no and not anymore or any less than other aspects. But for a second let's pretend it was. It's still not a major deciding factor in crime-related statistics at all, nor is there really evidence of such unless somebody can prove me wrong here and provide some sort of correlation/causation. Music can be a significant part of culture but most people even kids that have been raised good as well realize that music is what it is, music. Just like video games and movies, aren't usually meant to be taken seriously. A person raised to be a good human being and productive member of society listening to "degenerate music". I think we see plenty of this in everyday life.

No, it's also about social environment (eg culture), not just family environment.

Music has a big influence in a given culture. It can introduce or reinforce things into a given culture. Do you disagree?
I think you are dancing around the issue here and using your own presumptions and generalities where we should use facts. Whether it can introduce or reinforce things sure but that doesn't really say much about reality and really blinds people from the main issues here. And how do you know and to what degree is music influencing the culture?Because I will argue heavily that the pervasive culture in general influences the music and it's content, and that if you really want to change the ills of society you attack it at its roots, not the symptom. Rap and hip-hop, especially in the 90s is a byproduct of this where a lot of people living that life were the ones rapping about it. When crack hit hard in the 80s is really when you started to see this theme and everything associated with it expressed in the music.

So in all i disagree with you, music is not a major factor in all of this. Nor will getting rid of said music in my opinion will be meaningful at all in tackling the real problems.
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post 1571741001 01-21-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted By sooby⏩
Music can be a significant part of culture but most people even kids that have been raised good as well realize that music is what it is, music. Just like video games and movies, aren't usually meant to be taken seriously.
Rappers want you to take it seriously, rappers get called out a lot for not really being 'gangsta' and angrily defend themselves or will even engage in violence .
I think you are dancing around the issue here and using your own presumptions and generalities where we should use facts.
The issue of this thread is the influence of hip hop around society. So what do you think I'm dancing around.

Unfortunately there aren't many studies on the influence of hip hop on behaviour.

Here is some relevant research though...

1)

"Listening to rap music was significantly and positively associated with alcohol use, problematic alcohol use, illicit drug use, and aggressive behaviors when all other variables were controlled."

"The findings suggest that young people’s substance use and aggressive behaviors may be related to their frequent exposure to music containing references to substance use and violence."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5066304/

2)

"In five experiments, Anderson and his colleagues asked more than 500 college students to listen to such violent songs as "Shoot 'Em Up" by Cypress Hill and "Hit 'Em Hard" by Run DMC, and such nonviolent songs as "Finger Lickin' Good" by the Beastie Boys and "Love vs. Loneliness" by the Suicidal Tendencies. Researchers also included the lyrics of humorous violent and nonviolent songs like "A Boy Named Sue" by Johnny Cash and "Hello Mudduh, Hello Fadduh" by Allan Sherman.

After listening to the songs, the students performed various word-association tasks to test whether they linked more non-aggressive words with aggressive words or filled incomplete words with vowels to make aggressive words. They also reported their feelings of hostility as measured by the State Hostility Scale, ranking sentences based on their emotions after hearing the songs.

The results indicate a relationship between violent song lyrics and increased aggressive thoughts and feelings of hostility. Humorous violent songs also increased aggression levels, relative to humorous nonviolent songs, according to Anderson. The findings held even after the researchers controlled for the listeners' gender and personality differences, as well as their reactions to the different performing artists and musical styles."

https://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/violent.aspx

3) Psychiatrist and violence prevention expert James Gilligan lead a psychotherapeutic intervention into a violent psychiatric hospital, with a high rate of assaults and suicide. After a 2 year intervention, the violence and homicide rate dropped to near zero...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...hare=nynyumlib

In his bookPreventing Violence, and in his lectures and interviews available on youtube, he talks about 2 significant psychological factors when it comes to people who have a potential and propensity for assault and murder. He said they were; a fragile sense of self worth, wherestrongfeelings of shame, humiliation, areeasilytriggered (eg. people ready to fight or kill, because someone looked at them funny), and (relevant to this discussion) a philosophy/worldview that says to be a 'real man' is to be dominant or superior to others. He said that men who hold that philosophy about masculinity, take anyperceivedchallenge to their sense of dominance or superiority as something that needs to be dealt with by any means necessary (from verbal aggression, to outright violence).

He said that it's necessary to help them heal their self worth, and underlying feelings of shame and humiliation - and to help them change their views on masculinity, in order to reduce their potential and propensity for violence.

Hip Hop's philosophy of masculinity is... Superiority, dominance, and self-aggrandizement. The kind of philosophy, that James Gilligan intensifies as a cause for psychology that is prone to violence.

The documentary I previously linkedi in another post explored hip hop's views on masculinity, here is the post again...

https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showt...post1571730121
And how do you know and to what degree is music influencing the culture?
It's not quantifiable, but please see above.
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post 1571741531 01-21-2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
Rappers want you to take it seriously, rappers get called out a lot for not really being 'gangsta' and angrily defend themselves or will even engage in violence .




The issue of this thread is the influence of hip hop around society. So what do you think I'm dancing around.

Unfortunately there aren't many studies on the influence of hip hop on behaviour.

Here is some relevant research though...

1)

"Listening to rap music was significantly and positively associated with alcohol use, problematic alcohol use, illicit drug use, and aggressive behaviors when all other variables were controlled."

"The findings suggest that young people’s substance use and aggressive behaviors may be related to their frequent exposure to music containing references to substance use and violence."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5066304/

2)

"In five experiments, Anderson and his colleagues asked more than 500 college students to listen to such violent songs as "Shoot 'Em Up" by Cypress Hill and "Hit 'Em Hard" by Run DMC, and such nonviolent songs as "Finger Lickin' Good" by the Beastie Boys and "Love vs. Loneliness" by the Suicidal Tendencies. Researchers also included the lyrics of humorous violent and nonviolent songs like "A Boy Named Sue" by Johnny Cash and "Hello Mudduh, Hello Fadduh" by Allan Sherman.

After listening to the songs, the students performed various word-association tasks to test whether they linked more non-aggressive words with aggressive words or filled incomplete words with vowels to make aggressive words. They also reported their feelings of hostility as measured by the State Hostility Scale, ranking sentences based on their emotions after hearing the songs.

The results indicate a relationship between violent song lyrics and increased aggressive thoughts and feelings of hostility. Humorous violent songs also increased aggression levels, relative to humorous nonviolent songs, according to Anderson. The findings held even after the researchers controlled for the listeners' gender and personality differences, as well as their reactions to the different performing artists and musical styles."

https://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/violent.aspx

3) Psychiatrist and violence prevention expert James Gilligan lead a psychotherapeutic intervention into a violent psychiatric hospital, with a high rate of assaults and suicide. After a 2 year intervention, the violence and homicide rate dropped to near zero...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...hare=nynyumlib

In his bookPreventing Violence, and in his lectures and interviews available on youtube, he talks about 2 significant psychological factors when it comes to people who have a potential and propensity for assault and murder. He said they were; a fragile sense of self worth, wherestrongfeelings of shame, humiliation, areeasilytriggered (eg. people ready to fight or kill, because someone looked at them funny), and (relevant to this discussion) a philosophy/worldview that says to be a 'real man' is to be dominant or superior to others. He said that men who hold that philosophy about masculinity, take anyperceivedchallenge to their sense of dominance or superiority as something that needs to be dealt with by any means necessary (from verbal aggression, to outright violence).

He said that it's necessary to help them heal their self worth, and underlying feelings of shame and humiliation - and to help them change their views on masculinity, in order to reduce their potential and propensity for violence.

Hip Hop's philosophy of masculinity is... Superiority, dominance, and self-aggrandizement. The kind of philosophy, that James Gilligan intensifies as a cause for psychology that is prone to violence.

The documentary I previously linkedi in another post explored hip hop's views on masculinity, here is the post again...

https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showt...post1571730121



It's not quantifiable, but please see above.
post 1571744011 01-21-2019, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
Rappers want you to take it seriously, rappers get called out a lot for not really being 'gangsta' and angrily defend themselves or will even engage in violence .
which is why i qualified my statement with saying usually. Just because rappers take it seriously, doesn't mean that you should. At the end of the day it's about money, and most rappers will rap about what makes the most money, whether it be "gangsta" rap or "party" rap or whatever. A lot of rappers really aren't "gangstas"


The issue of this thread is the influence of hip hop around society. So what do you think I'm dancing around.
You were talking about chit like is music a big part of culture and other things that doesn't really have much bearing on the issue of whether or not music is a significant factor in crime and crime related statistics.
Unfortunately there aren't many studies on the influence of hip hop on behaviour.

Here is some relevant research though...

1)

"Listening to rap music was significantly and positively associated with alcohol use, problematic alcohol use, illicit drug use, and aggressive behaviors when all other variables were controlled."

"The findings suggest that young people’s substance use and aggressive behaviors may be related to their frequent exposure to music containing references to substance use and violence."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5066304/

2)

"In five experiments, Anderson and his colleagues asked more than 500 college students to listen to such violent songs as "Shoot 'Em Up" by Cypress Hill and "Hit 'Em Hard" by Run DMC, and such nonviolent songs as "Finger Lickin' Good" by the Beastie Boys and "Love vs. Loneliness" by the Suicidal Tendencies. Researchers also included the lyrics of humorous violent and nonviolent songs like "A Boy Named Sue" by Johnny Cash and "Hello Mudduh, Hello Fadduh" by Allan Sherman.

After listening to the songs, the students performed various word-association tasks to test whether they linked more non-aggressive words with aggressive words or filled incomplete words with vowels to make aggressive words. They also reported their feelings of hostility as measured by the State Hostility Scale, ranking sentences based on their emotions after hearing the songs.

The results indicate a relationship between violent song lyrics and increased aggressive thoughts and feelings of hostility. Humorous violent songs also increased aggression levels, relative to humorous nonviolent songs, according to Anderson. The findings held even after the researchers controlled for the listeners' gender and personality differences, as well as their reactions to the different performing artists and musical styles."

https://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/violent.aspx

3) Psychiatrist and violence prevention expert James Gilligan lead a psychotherapeutic intervention into a violent psychiatric hospital, with a high rate of assaults and suicide. After a 2 year intervention, the violence and homicide rate dropped to near zero...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...hare=nynyumlib

In his bookPreventing Violence, and in his lectures and interviews available on youtube, he talks about 2 significant psychological factors when it comes to people who have a potential and propensity for assault and murder. He said they were; a fragile sense of self worth, wherestrongfeelings of shame, humiliation, areeasilytriggered (eg. people ready to fight or kill, because someone looked at them funny), and (relevant to this discussion) a philosophy/worldview that says to be a 'real man' is to be dominant or superior to others. He said that men who hold that philosophy about masculinity, take anyperceivedchallenge to their sense of dominance or superiority as something that needs to be dealt with by any means necessary (from verbal aggression, to outright violence).

He said that it's necessary to help them heal their self worth, and underlying feelings of shame and humiliation - and to help them change their views on masculinity, in order to reduce their potential and propensity for violence.

Hip Hop's philosophy of masculinity is... Superiority, dominance, and self-aggrandizement. The kind of philosophy, that James Gilligan intensifies as a cause for psychology that is prone to violence.

The documentary I previously linkedi in another post explored hip hop's views on masculinity, here is the post again...

https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showt...post1571730121



It's not quantifiable, but please see above.
These studies don't really prove or suggest that music is a significant factor in crime. I wouldn't even say that this is hip-hop's "philosophy" although it is a recurring theme in hip-hop nowadays. If you look at the history of hip-hop that's not necessarily what it was about. There is plenty of hip-hop that don't espouse negative values. It "may" be a factor in assaults, murder, etc, But being "dominant" or "superior" or feeling that way isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's like saying "insert any personality trait" is a propensity for "any negative activity" and making the assumption that the said personality trait or anything that promotes it is bad. Simply correlation vs causation. Superiority/domination, it's the same kind of mind-state in sports or perhaps a personality that one has to adopt in order to survive and succeed. Males tend to have more dominant personalities and for many that's how they have succeeded and in many situations it is a very positive trait to have; so I don't really necessarily see how this is a bad thing.

Linking some quote from a book, then linking it to hip-hop, then linking it's supposed influence to people being criminals and committing criminal actions. I feel like there are alot of underlying assumptions here that's quite a bit of a stretch.

I'm not saying that hip-hop doesn't promote negative values that can be harmful in certain circumstances, I'm just saying that's influence is largely overstated based on a multitude of much bigger factors and not really much of a cause for certain behaviors. Influencing a mind-state I will agree with. I find myself putting on very aggressive and degenerate music when going for a PR on a lift for example. Doesn't mean that this heightened sense of aggression will cause me to go out and commit crimes. Might make me more likely to get into a fight at a bar or more irritable. But that's an issue of self-control and not being able to control your emotions rather than the fault of some music you listened to eliciting feelings of aggression in general. This aggression also isn't exclusive to music that promote negative values or violence. Any sort of aggressive music, with an aggressive instrumental with lyrics that aren't negative but moreso, encouraging you to succeed and dominate the competition or w/e will also elicit feelings of aggression/aggressive behaviors.
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post 1571748111 01-21-2019, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted By sooby⏩
These studies don't really prove or suggest that music is a significant factor in crime.
Studies can't prove anything, science doesn't deal in proofs. I'm not nitpicking, I'm pointing out out that if you are looking for 'proof', you'll never find it.

2 of the studies do talk about music increasing aggression/hostility, which are precursors to violence.

1 study was talking about a psycho-therapeutic intervention, which dramatically lowered the violence and suicide rate in a psychiatric hosptial. And part of the intervention was changing the prisoners philosophy about masculinity - and the philosophy of masculinity that James Gilligan deemed as a significantly increasing a males potential and propensity for violence, is the same as the gangster rap view of masculinity.

However, you have basically seem to say that you don't find anything of that research relevant, so I really don't have anything else to offer in regards to research.
There is plenty of hip-hop that don't espouse negative values.
It's not the majority.
It "may" be a factor in assaults, murder, etc, But being "dominant" or "superior" or feeling that way isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Practically every major religious tradition, and psychology in general, agrees that narcissism is bad trait.

James Gilligan successfully lead a therapeutic intervention and is sharing with us his model, he says that narcissism is trait that tends to lead to bullying, aggression and violence.

I agree with them.
Males tend to have more dominant personalities and for many that's how they have succeeded and in many situations it is a very positive trait to have; so I don't really necessarily see how this is a bad thing.
I would advise reading James Gilligan's bookPreventing Violence, and I would advise researching more into Narcissism.

There are many religous works talking about Narcissism/arrogance and it's antithesis; humility, and there are are many psychology articles and books on Narcissism. They can explain (in various way, and from various perspectives) Narcissism is usually not a positive character trait.
I find myself putting on very aggressive and degenerate music when going for a PR on a lift for example. Doesn't mean that this heightened sense of aggression will cause me to go out and commit crimes.Might make me more likely to get into a fight at a bar or more irritable.
Assault is a crime, and you've just said that it might make you more likely to get into a fight at a bar.

That is exactly what I've been talking about.

You just have explained how music can influence a person towards a violent crime, using yourself as an example!
But that's an issue of self-control and not being able to control your emotions rather than the fault of some music you listened to eliciting feelings of aggression in general.
I'm not saying that I believe 1 factor motivates violent crimes. I believe it is multifaceted.

However (like in your personal example) listening to aggressive music, canincreasea person's inclination to respond to a situation aggressively or violently.

If you (admittedly) listened to music that increased your sense of hostility and aggression, and you get into a fight, then I would argue that the music is a factor to blame.A factor, not the whole picture.

I am not (and I doubt a single person ITT would argue) that the person has no agency, and that they aren't responsible for assault, because they listened to rap. What we are saying (as the studies indicated) that aggressive music - like gangsta rap - increases a person's sense of hostility and aggression, making it more likely that they will engage in violence.
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post 1571749391 01-21-2019, 12:22 PM
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The real question is what would tradies be doing if they had no country music? Would they still buy lottery tickets, beer, and lift kits?
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
Studies can't prove anything, science doesn't deal in proofs. I'm not nitpicking, I'm pointing out out that if you are looking for 'proof', you'll never find it.

2 of the studies do talk about music increasing aggression/hostility, which are precursors to violence.

1 study was talking about a psycho-therapeutic intervention, which dramatically lowered the violence and suicide rate in a psychiatric hosptial. And part of the intervention was changing the prisoners philosophy about masculinity - and the philosophy of masculinity that James Gilligan deemed as a significantly increasing a males potential and propensity for violence, is the same as the gangster rap view of masculinity.

However, you have basically seem to say that you don't find anything of that research relevant, so I really don't have anything else to offer in regards to research.
Being "aggressive" or "hostile", however you may define it isn't inherently a bad thing and is also situational and dependent on the circumstances. Being "overly" or "too aggressive" to a fault where you can't control it and are out there committing crimes is obviously bad. And obviously in that case it would be advisable to attempt to lower that person's aggression and hostility through therapy. In the context of this, saying the supposed philosophy of masculinity that is toxic is the same one being promoted in rap music isn't really saying much at all. A million things in life can increase aggression and hostility. Watching the Saints lose to a non-call probably made 100s of people angry, upset, probably more aggressive. Doesn't mean that watching sports is a bad thing because it can increase aggression. Feelings of aggression are unavoidable. It's about how you deal with your aggression and hostile feelings is what matters here. And most people aren't going to resort to crime, if they do, they have other problems.

And it is the parents that teach the child how to handle their emotions, and that there are consequences to letting emotions get the better of you.
It's not the majority.
I can argue that but that's another discussion. But to say hip-hop as a culture promotes violence, etc is a huge generality, especially if you don't really know the history.

Practically every major religious tradition, and psychology in general, agrees that narcissism is bad trait.

James Gilligan successfully lead a therapeutic intervention and is sharing with us his model, he says that narcissism is trait that tends to lead to bullying, aggression and violence.

I agree with them.
I'm curious as to how narcissism is being defined here and based on that definition, under what criteria are we labeling music narcissistic? Because narcissism is a very strong word and there is an actual diagnosis for it. People might be overly concerned with materialism, appearance and wealth but I would hesitate to call it narcissism necessarily. I'm not saying that certain hip-hop music doesn't promote that mentality and has certain elements that MAY be indicative of a narcissistic personality. But this seems to be a very subjective grey area between just trying to look out, take care and do for yourself, simple bragging which let's be honest everyone has probably done at some point. At what point does the scale tip to narcissistic levels from just simple "Look at me, I got money!". I mean, me personally I would just consider that funny and attention-whoring rather than being narcissist.
Assault is a crime, and you've just said that it might make you more likely to get into a fight at a bar.

That is exactly what I've been talking about.

You just have explained how music can influence a person towards a violent crime, using yourself as an example!
Again in my previous post, I have acknowledged that music can influence your mind-state. Setting a PR as an example. It can increase aggression say by listening to aggressive music. And maybe that little bit of irritability and heightened sense of bravado may push you slightly over the tipping point as to where you would commit assault. However, I think you are missing the bigger picture here.

How is this at all exclusive to rap music? If we are going to apply the same standards here then any aggressive music is bad because it could possibly lead to somebody to commit a crime. Anything that increases aggression in general would be considered bad. Different things elicit aggression in people too so I don't think we want to go down that rabbit hole. But what I'm saying is just because something increases aggression doesn't make it inherently bad. Music that increases aggression isn't inherently bad. You can use that heightened aggression for something positive like setting a PR on the bench press or something negative like getting into fights. So really it's about how you control your emotions and your feelings. People have different thresholds, some people can, some people can't, simple. And if modalities that increase aggression is bad, how do you suggest policing that?

If you want to say music can influence a person towards a violent crime, then indirectly through increased aggression, yes. Okay, but how is that a good argument for anything? A million other things can increase aggression and these aren't necessarily huge factors as to why crime statistics as they are and nor are they even necessarily bad things inherently. Nor are many solutions including the one proposed here to reduce "things that reduce aggression" really practical or feasible. Or if rap music were to disappear off the face of the earth that somehow OP thinks we'd be one step closer to a utopian society. Just lol. If poverty were to be dramatically reduced, if babies were born to traditional families, these are real, actual, significant influences in the amount of crimes committed. Not rap music which is but a very small factor.

I'm not saying that I believe 1 factor motivates violent crimes. I believe it is multifaceted.

However (like in your personal example) listening to aggressive music, canincreasea person's inclination to respond to a situation aggressively or violently.

If you (admittedly) listening to music that increased your sense of hostility, and you get into a fight, then I would argue that the music is a factor to blame.

I am not (and I doubt a single person ITT would argue) that the person has no agency, and isn't responsible for assault, because they listened to rap. What we are saying (as the studies indicated) that aggressive music - like gangsta rap - increases a person's sense of hostility and aggression, making it more likely that they will engage in violence.
I think we are digressing a little bit here from the main point I was really trying to make. If we were to get rid of rap music today, do you think crime statistics would decrease significantly in any way? I say no because I don't think it's a significant factor in terms of crime abundancy.
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post 1571752031 01-21-2019, 01:05 PM
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#180
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
Do you think that Gangsta rap is going to help to stop it, or help to continue it?
“Gangsta rap” makes up a very very small percentage of current rap and its the bottom of the barrel.

The biggest rappers in the game right now aren’t gangsta rappers. J Cole, Drake, Kendrick, etc....id be hard pressed to find a TRUE gangsta rapper that’s at the top or even somewhat relevant. MAYBE YG if you count that as Gangsta rap.

I won’t type out a long pseudo-intellectual think piece like the goons ITT...but if I had to rank “downfalls to the black community” - rap music would be at the absolute bottom, probably lol.

You can look into some of the programs/laws put into place from ~1864 - now. There’s your answer.

Rap isn’t the biggest / most influential genre in the world because of black ppl. But bc rappers have crossed over into white america.
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