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Who Do You Guys Think Are The Top Philosophers And Their Lessons? (80K)
Who Do You Guys Think Are The Top Philosophers And Their Lessons? (80K)
08-19-2019, 02:35 PM
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#121
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Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
havent read thread, and dont want to cause i got stuff to do and dont want argumentsmaybe moral realism a la heumer and cuneo
https://philpapers.org/archive/HUEAOP.pdf
it is possible that morality aint real, but i think it is not a currently a popular position.
you have to stop reading about people's near death experiences brah. it's like holding a magnet up to a tube tv and thinkin there are rainbows inside of it. take it at face value- the brain does odd things when it is dying.
edit
The Normative Web: An Argument for Moral Realism
Terence Cuneo
ABSTRACT
Antirealist views about morality claim that moral facts do not exist. An interesting question to raise about these views is whether they imply that other types of normative facts, such as epistemic facts, do not exist. This book develops the argument that they do. That is, it contends that moral and epistemic facts are sufficiently similar that, if moral facts do not exist, then epistemic facts also do not exist. But epistemic facts (facts that concern reasons for belief), it is argued, do exist. So, moral facts also exist. And if moral facts exist, then moral realism is true. This argument provides not simply a defence of a robustly realist view of ethics, but a positive argument for this position. In so doing, it engages with sophisticated sceptical positions in epistemology, such as error theories, expressivist views, and reductionist views of epistemic reasons. These positions, it is claimed, come at a high theoretical cost. It follows that realism about both epistemic and moral facts is a position that we should find highly attractive.
https://philpapers.org/archive/HUEAOP.pdf
it is possible that morality aint real, but i think it is not a currently a popular position.
you have to stop reading about people's near death experiences brah. it's like holding a magnet up to a tube tv and thinkin there are rainbows inside of it. take it at face value- the brain does odd things when it is dying.
edit
The Normative Web: An Argument for Moral Realism
Terence Cuneo
ABSTRACT
Antirealist views about morality claim that moral facts do not exist. An interesting question to raise about these views is whether they imply that other types of normative facts, such as epistemic facts, do not exist. This book develops the argument that they do. That is, it contends that moral and epistemic facts are sufficiently similar that, if moral facts do not exist, then epistemic facts also do not exist. But epistemic facts (facts that concern reasons for belief), it is argued, do exist. So, moral facts also exist. And if moral facts exist, then moral realism is true. This argument provides not simply a defence of a robustly realist view of ethics, but a positive argument for this position. In so doing, it engages with sophisticated sceptical positions in epistemology, such as error theories, expressivist views, and reductionist views of epistemic reasons. These positions, it is claimed, come at a high theoretical cost. It follows that realism about both epistemic and moral facts is a position that we should find highly attractive.
i used to wrestle with this idea when i was questioned about whether "morality was universal" or not
and i actually think it is.
it's life vs. death.
and the reason i came to this, is i believe all organisms have a reaction when death is on the line. you'll even see some animals (my point is not human) help out another animals when dealing with death. and most organisms recognize that death is bad, life is good inherently. you'll even have an animal like a dog's self preservation kick in if it feels threatened enough
generally, if you can convince an animal that you're not a threat, they might (i say might because its not 100%) let you in
08-19-2019, 02:41 PM
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#122
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Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
Brah... It's like you completely ignored everything I wrote in that post about Near Death Experiences. I specifically mentioned Veridical Near Death experiences, and both books I mentioned present those cases.you have to stop reading about people's near death experiences brah. it's like holding a magnet up to a tube tv and thinkin there are rainbows inside of it. take it at face value- the brain does odd things when it is dying.
I hope you take the time to read a few researchers books on the subjects (like the ones I mention) before dismissing them as hallucinations. (That is, if you enjoy reading.)
It's like talking to creationists, who dismiss theory of evolution, due to knowing nothing more about it than a paragraph summary.
If you are interested, a few popular books by researchers on the topic:
The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences by Titus Rivas, Anny Dirven, Rudolf H. Smit, Robert G. Mays
Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience by Pam Vin Lommel,
Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences by Jeffrey Long and Paul Perry
Light and Death: One Doctor's Fascinating Account of Near-death Experiences By Michael Saboom
Thanks for the info about the 2 big names of Moral Realism. I heard about Moral realism (because Ethical Naturalists are)... I've really lost interested in reading Western Philosophy though...
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08-19-2019, 02:43 PM
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#123
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i literally cant get passed the titles of any of those books. i award myself no points and may god have mercy on my soul.
edit - im gonna go drink like 12 trulys and try to forget everything i read itt.
edit - im gonna go drink like 12 trulys and try to forget everything i read itt.
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08-19-2019, 02:49 PM
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#124
Originally Posted By propreffered7⏩
Can you explain suicide then? What about murder?havent read thread, and dont want to cause i got stuff to do and dont want arguments
i used to wrestle with this idea when i was questioned about whether "morality was universal" or not
and i actually think it is.
it's life vs. death.
and the reason i came to this, is i believe all organisms have a reaction when death is on the line. you'll even see some animals (my point is not human) help out another animals when dealing with death. and most organisms recognize that death is bad, life is good inherently. you'll even have an animal like a dog's self preservation kick in if it feels threatened enough
generally, if you can convince an animal that you're not a threat, they might (i say might because its not 100%) let you in
i used to wrestle with this idea when i was questioned about whether "morality was universal" or not
and i actually think it is.
it's life vs. death.
and the reason i came to this, is i believe all organisms have a reaction when death is on the line. you'll even see some animals (my point is not human) help out another animals when dealing with death. and most organisms recognize that death is bad, life is good inherently. you'll even have an animal like a dog's self preservation kick in if it feels threatened enough
generally, if you can convince an animal that you're not a threat, they might (i say might because its not 100%) let you in
08-19-2019, 02:51 PM
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#125
08-19-2019, 02:53 PM
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#126
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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩
That's where it all stems from.That's themeta-ethicsis-ought problem, in simple language (with a seemingly philosophicalnaturalist presupposition).
Was listening to a debate on abortion the other day, pro life vs pro choice... both sides reasons stemmed from their desire of how they wish things to be. One side feels/desires life, and the other side feels desires choice >more than the other option... and that's that.
They'll debate back and forth, they'll give reasons and reasons, and talk past each other. But it simply comes down to "I want to world to be like this.", and if you ask "Why" again and again to each response, you'll hit rock bottom at "Because that's how I desire it to be"
I mean people can have hour long conversations on that topic, the root of each side is simply just how they desire the world to be, and how they desire the world to be stems from their emotion. A computer don't give a fuk if you throw it out of a 10 story window, a person does. Why? The person has desire, the computer does not. And all that we want from the world stems from that. Why do you want a gf? I feel like it. Why do you wanna eat? I feel like it. Why do you wanna watch that movie? I feel like it.
It's at the root of everything, most get tricked into thinking they've rationalised their way of being via logic... but fuk no have they, the root of that is emotion/desire... it always is.
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08-19-2019, 02:53 PM
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#127
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08-19-2019, 03:00 PM
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#128
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
i mean that morality is universal in that almost all (haven't studied every single one) organisms seem to recognize life is good and death is badCan you explain suicide then? What about murder?
morality definitely implies multiple people doesnt it? im not sure if morality exists with only 1 person
so, in that case, morality prob extends toward our behavior impacting others. so, in that sense, as i said before, you recognize death is bad therefore murder is really bad.
im not sure if theres morality regarding suicide. obviously someone was in a lot of pain in order to be able to commit it, but someone committing suicide vs. mass murder is a bit different in that one directly inflicts pain on others. suicide is potentially more self-soothing than inflicting pain on others (though i guess it could also be the same). obviously it does impact people close to the person that committed but im not sure if that's the intent as much as relinquishing themselves
another question to me is whether morality would exist if there were no food. or i guess i mean if all grocery stores suddenly stopped and people had to make their own food
08-19-2019, 04:40 PM
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#129
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What is consciousness made out of. It’s electrical current in our brains? So does that mean it’s made out of electrons? If so where are the protons and neutrons? And since energy can neither be created or destroyed where was it before we were born and where does it go when we die?
Also where was the Big Bang when it exploded since there was no “where”
Also where was the Big Bang when it exploded since there was no “where”
There is no they…
08-19-2019, 05:34 PM
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#130
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Ah this philosophical babble thread still going, and even managing to diverge into NDEs (lol). Wincels post about a lot of philosophy being bs is still the most accurate post ITT imo.
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08-19-2019, 05:45 PM
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#131
08-20-2019, 04:00 AM
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#132
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Originally Posted By FailedPotential⏩
Something I'm come to realize, is that the best persuaders focus on trying to change or get people to question their values (I'm not talking of course about the people who try to ridicule the person, as an attempt to get them to try to question their values/beliefs).It's at the root of everything, most get tricked into thinking they've rationalised their way of being via logic... but fuk no have they, the root of that is emotion/desire... it always is.
I've seen that strategy be very successful when White Nationalists use it on White Libertarians. It's so successful that it has a nickname; 'The Libertarian to Alt Right pipeline'.
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08-20-2019, 04:14 AM
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#133
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Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
Fair enough.i literally cant get passed the titles of any of those books.
Just to reitrate, there is respected research out there regarding Veridical Near Death Experiences. Before dismissing or ridiculing the phenomenon, I think it's a good idea to do some research.
If You Don't Like To Talk About Your Feelings, This Might Help...
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The Most Heartbreaking Thing That I've Learned About 'The Elite'.
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Bitcoin And 'The Elite' - Why Bitcoin Is Not Revolutionary
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=179820783
08-20-2019, 04:33 AM
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#134
Originally Posted By Travis99⏩
Consciousness is stored chemically and electrically in the brain, but nobody knows the exact nature of how.What is consciousness made out of. It’s electrical current in our brains? So does that mean it’s made out of electrons? If so where are the protons and neutrons? And since energy can neither be created or destroyed where was it before we were born and where does it go when we die?
Also where was the Big Bang when it exploded since there was no “where”
Also where was the Big Bang when it exploded since there was no “where”
Big bang was not really an explosion.
08-20-2019, 04:45 AM
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#135
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
(In case you don't know) That's a philosophical position, called physicalism.Consciousness is stored chemically and electrically in the brain, but nobody knows the exact nature of how.
Scientifically speaking, consciousness being an emergent phenomenon from biology is an assumption.
A lot of people seem to think thatassumingMethodological Naturalism (which the scientific method does), is the same asassertingPhilosophical Naturalism.
If You Don't Like To Talk About Your Feelings, This Might Help...
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The Most Heartbreaking Thing That I've Learned About 'The Elite'.
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=178536851
Bitcoin And 'The Elite' - Why Bitcoin Is Not Revolutionary
https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=179820783
08-20-2019, 04:45 AM
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#136
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
This is just one assumptionConsciousness is stored chemically and electrically in the brain
A lot of smart people have filled a lot of books trying to prove/disprove that - and none have managed it
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08-20-2019, 04:50 AM
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#137
Originally Posted By Slayermanlet⏩
It's pretty easy to show it has to be those. They can damage parts of your brain amd remove consciousness or memories.This is just one assumption
A lot of smart people have filled a lot of books trying to prove/disprove that - and none have managed it
A lot of smart people have filled a lot of books trying to prove/disprove that - and none have managed it
08-20-2019, 05:10 AM
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#138
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
That's one way to look at it but some would say you're conflating consciousness with cognition.It's pretty easy to show it has to be those. They can damage parts of your brain amd remove consciousness or memories.
Gymnastics / Oly Lifting / BJJ / Kickboxing /
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08-20-2019, 05:12 AM
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#139
08-20-2019, 05:38 AM
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#140
A lot of the usual suspects were already mentioned so I'll add Kant, especially with regards to philosophical ethics. Haven't studied that much philosophy, but deontology really resonated. I know it has some critiques but for the most part i think the categorical imperative sets a pretty high and fair moral standard that's very much like the 'golden rule'. As far as interpersonal relationships/dealings his standard for morality is a solid model for basic human decency and harmony. I wish more people lived by the ci.
08-20-2019, 06:11 AM
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#141
Originally Posted By Travis99⏩
Nah our souls are eternal, we go to the soul depository wit basedgod to decide where we spawn and whose bitches we gon ****.What is consciousness made out of. It’s electrical current in our brains? So does that mean it’s made out of electrons? If so where are the protons and neutrons? And since energy can neither be created or destroyed where was it before we were born and where does it go when we die?
Also where was the Big Bang when it exploded since there was no “where”
Also where was the Big Bang when it exploded since there was no “where”
Originally Posted By nn586⏩
All comedians who excel necessarily have to be very in tune with truth, Carlin was an excellent wordsmith, not really sure as far as his actual "beliefs," but his critiques and wordplay was second to none.OP, I'd say George Carlin is one of the best most recent philosophers of our time.
Thoughts on Mr. Carlin ?
Thoughts on Mr. Carlin ?
Originally Posted By LordBroly⏩
Kant is a good 1, never really read much of him, but that which I did read was interesting, what was most interesting or useful to you?A lot of the usual suspects were already mentioned so I'll add Kant, especially with regards to philosophical ethics. Haven't studied that much philosophy, but deontology really resonated. I know it has some critiques but for the most part i think the categorical imperative sets a pretty high and fair moral standard that's very much like the 'golden rule'. As far as interpersonal relationships/dealings his standard for morality is a solid model for basic human decency and harmony. I wish more people lived by the ci.
08-20-2019, 08:59 AM
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#142
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Originally Posted By wincel⏩
Again, that's a philosophical position.It's pretty easy to show it has to be those. They can damage parts of your brain amd remove consciousness or memories.
There is no scientific consensus regarding what consciousness is, so how can you say 'It's pretty easy to show it has to be those'.
How can you say i can be easily shown, if no quantifiable and falsifiable model of consciousness has been established?
How do we quantify experience?
Do you know what the Hard Problem of Consciousness is?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_p..._consciousness
Verdical Near Death Experience cases exist (cases where it's verified that people have described medical procedures, and the medical staff who carried them out, whilst being clinically dead), so again... It's not that easy to say anything for definite regarding consciousness.
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The Most Heartbreaking Thing That I've Learned About 'The Elite'.
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Bitcoin And 'The Elite' - Why Bitcoin Is Not Revolutionary
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08-20-2019, 09:07 AM
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#143
Originally Posted By NVious⏩
Me neither. The only of his works that I've read isGroundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals, in which he talks about the CI and deontology. I basically found everything about deontology to be quite interesting as compared to, say, utilitarianism since it is based on principles guided by duty and obligation rather than the consequences of an action. While I was reading it felt like a more consistent guideline for morality than something like utilitarianism, but it obviously has its limitations.Kant is a good 1, never really read much of him, but that which I did read was interesting, what was most interesting or useful to you?
08-20-2019, 09:15 AM
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#144
Originally Posted By LordBroly⏩
Was he Chechen? Haha "duty and obligation" is next level Caucasus thinking!Me neither. The only of his works that I've read isGroundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals, in which he talks about the CI and deontology. I basically found everything about deontology to be quite interesting as compared to, say, utilitarianism since it is based on principles guided by duty and obligation rather than the consequences of an action. While I was reading it felt like a more consistent guideline for morality than something like utilitarianism, but it obviously has its limitations.
08-20-2019, 09:40 AM
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#145
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kants antimonies are sort of a pre cursor to hegelian negation of the negation.
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08-20-2019, 09:54 AM
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#146
08-20-2019, 11:12 AM
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#147
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Originally Posted By NVious⏩
read about it in the SEP, i will just butcher it tryin to oversimplify it.What does this mean for us brainlets?
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/k...hysics/#MatAnt
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08-20-2019, 11:36 AM
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#148
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Originally Posted By propreffered7⏩
Seems to be quite the oversimplification. I wonder what the lion thinks of your bolded, as he is busy chowing down on his latest catch. Does the lion think killing life is bad? Hardly. Chimps are known to brutally attack and kill fellow chimps in the wild, especially members of neighboring communities (and have also been known to practice cannibalism and infanticide, where's the "morality" in this?). Much, if not most, of what you see around you in biology is a result of natural selection/evolution. To attempt to extend a universal morality (whatever that is) over all of the species out there, making it simply life/vs death, is an exercise in futility. Heck it is questionable whether most animals understand what death is at all, especially the notoriously unintelligent ones like the reptiles and fish. Just sounds like more philosophical babble at the end of the day.i mean that morality is universal in thatalmost all (haven't studied every single one) organisms seem to recognize life is good and death is bad
morality definitely implies multiple people doesnt it? im not sure if morality exists with only 1 person
so, in that case, morality prob extends toward our behavior impacting others. so, in that sense, as i said before, you recognize death is bad therefore murder is really bad.
im not sure if theres morality regarding suicide. obviously someone was in a lot of pain in order to be able to commit it, but someone committing suicide vs. mass murder is a bit different in that one directly inflicts pain on others. suicide is potentially more self-soothing than inflicting pain on others (though i guess it could also be the same). obviously it does impact people close to the person that committed but im not sure if that's the intent as much as relinquishing themselves
another question to me is whether morality would exist if there were no food. or i guess i mean if all grocery stores suddenly stopped and people had to make their own food
morality definitely implies multiple people doesnt it? im not sure if morality exists with only 1 person
so, in that case, morality prob extends toward our behavior impacting others. so, in that sense, as i said before, you recognize death is bad therefore murder is really bad.
im not sure if theres morality regarding suicide. obviously someone was in a lot of pain in order to be able to commit it, but someone committing suicide vs. mass murder is a bit different in that one directly inflicts pain on others. suicide is potentially more self-soothing than inflicting pain on others (though i guess it could also be the same). obviously it does impact people close to the person that committed but im not sure if that's the intent as much as relinquishing themselves
another question to me is whether morality would exist if there were no food. or i guess i mean if all grocery stores suddenly stopped and people had to make their own food
Speaking of philosophical babble, back to the OP, consider the following work of Aristotle about the heavens:
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/heavens.1.i.html
(essentially complete verbose nonsense...Aristotle was known for this)
with an actually insightful look into the physics of the heavenly bodies (Newton):
https://books.google.com/books?id=N-...ncipia&f=false
I do think Aristotle did some good things such as a first real attempt at systematizing biology, and a rudimentary attempt at a good logical framework (his syllogisms are rather dated now in the modern garb of mathematical logic- replaced by the language of the first order predicate calculus). But man, I don't turn to Aristotle for a brilliant mind in the history of human thought: I turn to the Archimedes's, Galileos, Newtons, Einsteins, etc.
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08-20-2019, 11:46 AM
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#149
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I think the buddhist path is the best imo. Look up matthieu ricard and his talks on happiness. i dont know much about other philosophers but from what i know aristotle is my fave
08-20-2019, 11:51 AM
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#150
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Originally Posted By numberguy12⏩
and in that moment i invoked the moral philosophies of euler and gauss and i was euphoriaBut man, I don't turn to Aristotle for a brilliant mind in the history of human thought: I turn to the Archimedes's, Galileos, Newtons, Einsteins, etc.
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