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Practicing medicine now, I see just how immune doctors are from AI/automation (srs)
01-29-2020, 12:04 PM
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#181
Originally Posted By Didlid⏩
So there is zero insensitive to automate because you still need actual Doctors to verify everything the AI is recommending which requires just as much time and manpower?Someone already answered but i'll answer again for them.
The same person who gets sued now, the company that employes whoever is using the machinery.
In a factory and someone gets sucked into a mill and dies, who gets sued? the company obviously. You're making it out like there is nobody who takes responsibility of a system when it takes over a roll lol. The same person who owns the machine and/or the company that provides the software/machine would get sued same as any other business AI powered or not.
Who gets sued when an airplane malfunctions? - the airline
Who gets sued when a factory machine malfunctions with mechanical error killing/injuring an employee? - The company who made the machine if it didn't meet standards or the company that owns the machine because they didn't follow correct safety procedures
Who gets sued when there is a data breach because of weak code? - The company that provided the software and / or the person who wrote the code
The same thing applies to all of those cases. The person who is either responsible for the machine or the person that is operating it in whatever business.
The same person who gets sued now, the company that employes whoever is using the machinery.
In a factory and someone gets sucked into a mill and dies, who gets sued? the company obviously. You're making it out like there is nobody who takes responsibility of a system when it takes over a roll lol. The same person who owns the machine and/or the company that provides the software/machine would get sued same as any other business AI powered or not.
Who gets sued when an airplane malfunctions? - the airline
Who gets sued when a factory machine malfunctions with mechanical error killing/injuring an employee? - The company who made the machine if it didn't meet standards or the company that owns the machine because they didn't follow correct safety procedures
Who gets sued when there is a data breach because of weak code? - The company that provided the software and / or the person who wrote the code
The same thing applies to all of those cases. The person who is either responsible for the machine or the person that is operating it in whatever business.
This is the same problem that faces self driving trucks there is zero case law to decide who is culpable at the end of the day if your self driving truck kills someone.
01-29-2020, 12:08 PM
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#182
- AlwaysFocus
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Originally Posted By Hardlifter9⏩
its an art? u sound like some low end doctor who works at a clinic, infact you sound like a nurse who isnt even a doctor.No, because it's an art. It's grey area. And there is no right answer. Algorithmic approaches only work when it's A or B.
do you employ "luck" in your practice as well?
01-29-2020, 12:11 PM
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#183
01-29-2020, 12:18 PM
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#184
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ITT the reasons people believe machines won't take over are basically trivial.
The only barrier is time.
Could be Tomorrow, could be 100 years from now but LOL if you think it won't happen because the doctor gave little Billy a lollipop.
The only barrier is time.
Could be Tomorrow, could be 100 years from now but LOL if you think it won't happen because the doctor gave little Billy a lollipop.
The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.
That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.Originally Posted By Dave22reborn^^^Racist police officer who also cries about how racism doesn't exist, also cries reverse racism and typifies the stupidity of the racist right, referring to black people as "they" and regurgitating racist stereotypes.At least it will thunderstorm tonight, and we know how they feel about water. :)
01-29-2020, 12:22 PM
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#185
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Originally Posted By Hardlifter9⏩
EVERYTHING is either A or B.No, because it's an art. It's grey area. And there is no right answer. Algorithmic approaches only work when it's A or B.
It's either A, or B, which is the condition of not being A.
It's not that hard to wrap your head around.
Your reasoning is 100% wrong.
The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.
That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.Originally Posted By Dave22reborn^^^Racist police officer who also cries about how racism doesn't exist, also cries reverse racism and typifies the stupidity of the racist right, referring to black people as "they" and regurgitating racist stereotypes.At least it will thunderstorm tonight, and we know how they feel about water. :)
01-29-2020, 12:28 PM
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#186
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Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
Flawed reasoning.... most of my patients, even being a traumatologist where many things are A or B, are in the grey area. Surgical indications are guidelines, you have to take the whole picture into account. Same thing with treating managing complex patients with a long laundry list of comorbidities, there’s nothing A or B there.EVERYTHING is either A or B.
It's either A, or B, which is the condition of not being A.
It's not that hard to wrap your head around.
Your reasoning is 100% wrong.
It's either A, or B, which is the condition of not being A.
It's not that hard to wrap your head around.
Your reasoning is 100% wrong.
01-29-2020, 12:35 PM
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#187
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Originally Posted By sam212⏩
You can't give examples because you're wrong.Flawed reasoning.... most of my patients, even being a traumatologist where many things are A or B, are in the grey area. Surgical indications are guidelines, you have to take the whole picture into account. Same thing with treating managing complex patients with a long laundry list of comorbidities, there’s nothing A or B there.
Everything is A or B, there is no grey area.
You don't sorta have cancer, you either do or you don't, etc.
My guess would be that you, like the guy I quoted, are having trouble realizing things are either A or B.
You're having trouble understanding that either because you can't or don't want to.
You can go on and on about grey areas but ultimately whatever you're looking at is A, or If not then it's B.
That's whether you wanna misinterpret, or even ask the wrong questions, will never change.
The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.
That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.Originally Posted By Dave22reborn^^^Racist police officer who also cries about how racism doesn't exist, also cries reverse racism and typifies the stupidity of the racist right, referring to black people as "they" and regurgitating racist stereotypes.At least it will thunderstorm tonight, and we know how they feel about water. :)
01-29-2020, 12:41 PM
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#188
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Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
Ok, give you an example from yesterday. Lady with a distal femur frscture and history of MS, hasn’t ambulated in 3 years, just does bed to chair transfers using a hoyer lift at the nursing home. Along With that, insulin dependent diabetes and morbid obesity. Get consulted for potential surgical fixation because the emergency physician reads the XRayas a surgical frscture, I sure agree with him just looking at the XR. But it’s not as simple.You can't give examples because you're wrong.
Everything is A or B, there is no grey area.
You don't sorta have cancer, you either do or you don't, etc.
My guess would be that you, like the guy I quoted, are having trouble realizing things are either A or B.
You're having trouble understanding that either because you can't or don't want to.
You can go on and on about grey areas but ultimately whatever you're looking at is A, or If not then it's B.
That's whether you wanna misinterpret, or even ask the wrong questions, will never change.
Everything is A or B, there is no grey area.
You don't sorta have cancer, you either do or you don't, etc.
My guess would be that you, like the guy I quoted, are having trouble realizing things are either A or B.
You're having trouble understanding that either because you can't or don't want to.
You can go on and on about grey areas but ultimately whatever you're looking at is A, or If not then it's B.
That's whether you wanna misinterpret, or even ask the wrong questions, will never change.
I can give you countless examples. You don’t treat a lab or an X-ray. You treat the whole patient. I did not operate on that patient and will treat it nonoperatively in a brace.
01-29-2020, 12:41 PM
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#189
Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
This is 100% incorrect. Diagnosis is A or B typically. Treatment is absolutely not.You can't give examples because you're wrong.
Everything is A or B, there is no grey area.
You don't sorta have cancer, you either do or you don't, etc.
My guess would be that you, like the guy I quoted, are having trouble realizing things are either A or B.
You're having trouble understanding that either because you can't or don't want to.
You can go on and on about grey areas but ultimately whatever you're looking at is A, or If not then it's B.
That's whether you wanna misinterpret, or even ask the wrong questions, will never change.
Everything is A or B, there is no grey area.
You don't sorta have cancer, you either do or you don't, etc.
My guess would be that you, like the guy I quoted, are having trouble realizing things are either A or B.
You're having trouble understanding that either because you can't or don't want to.
You can go on and on about grey areas but ultimately whatever you're looking at is A, or If not then it's B.
That's whether you wanna misinterpret, or even ask the wrong questions, will never change.
*Edit. Maybe in socialist healthcare this would be beneficial. Have your algorithm always choose the cheapest option = profit??
01-29-2020, 12:44 PM
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#190
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Originally Posted By AlwaysFocus⏩
Yes, there’s a lot of luck, there are no guarantees.its an art? u sound like some low end doctor who works at a clinic, infact you sound like a nurse who isnt even a doctor.
do you employ "luck" in your practice as well?
do you employ "luck" in your practice as well?
01-29-2020, 12:46 PM
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#191
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Originally Posted By BOZZ⏩
Sure it is, you're just not asking the right questions.This is 100% incorrect. Diagnosis is A or B typically. Treatment is absolutely not.
Patient doesn't have A, they have B.
Patients with B take medicines from group A.
Did medicine in group A work, if not try B, etc can go on and on.
All about asking the right questions.
I don't even get the debate here TBH it's comical because that's exactly how everyone on the planet solves problem all day long, every day.
The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.
That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.Originally Posted By Dave22reborn^^^Racist police officer who also cries about how racism doesn't exist, also cries reverse racism and typifies the stupidity of the racist right, referring to black people as "they" and regurgitating racist stereotypes.At least it will thunderstorm tonight, and we know how they feel about water. :)
01-29-2020, 12:48 PM
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#192
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What happens to the doctors when AI can effectively see pre-existing conditions and correct it before we even get sick? There will be a very limited need for doctors when most people can remain healthy. I'll agree we are at least a couple decades before we see this level but I can see how the number of careers in the field will dry up.
01-29-2020, 12:48 PM
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#193
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Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
How about a patient with cervical radiculopathy with superimposed compression neuropathy such a carpal tunnel or cubical tunnel? Both present in same fashion, see one every week. You can get your MRI and EMG, you’ll diagnose both, but how will you decipher what is causing the symptoms?Sure it is, you're just not asking the right questions.
Patient doesn't have A, they have B.
Patients with B take medicines from group A.
Did medicine in group A work, if not try B, etc can go on and on.
All about asking the right questions.
I don't even get the debate here TBH it's comical because that's exactly how everyone on the planet solves problem all day long, every day.
Patient doesn't have A, they have B.
Patients with B take medicines from group A.
Did medicine in group A work, if not try B, etc can go on and on.
All about asking the right questions.
I don't even get the debate here TBH it's comical because that's exactly how everyone on the planet solves problem all day long, every day.
01-29-2020, 12:51 PM
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#194
Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
But who were side effects, quality of life and palliative care? Yep definitely A&BSure it is, you're just not asking the right questions.
Patient doesn't have A, they have B.
Patients with B take medicines from group A.
Did medicine in group A work, if not try B, etc can go on and on.
All about asking the right questions.
I don't even get the debate here TBH it's comical because that's exactly how everyone on the planet solves problem all day long, every day.
Patient doesn't have A, they have B.
Patients with B take medicines from group A.
Did medicine in group A work, if not try B, etc can go on and on.
All about asking the right questions.
I don't even get the debate here TBH it's comical because that's exactly how everyone on the planet solves problem all day long, every day.
01-29-2020, 12:52 PM
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#195
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Originally Posted By sam212⏩
You con throw whatever big words and medical jargon around, it will always boil down to either A or B.How about a patient with cervical radiculopathy with superimposed compression neuropathy such a carpal tunnel or cubical tunnel? Both present in same fashion, see one every week. You can get your MRI and EMG, you’ll diagnose both, but how will you decipher what is causing the symptoms?
I don't care what words you use, how big they are, that's a fact of life.
I don't even get what you're saying to do aside from show off your vocabulary.
The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.
That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.Originally Posted By Dave22reborn^^^Racist police officer who also cries about how racism doesn't exist, also cries reverse racism and typifies the stupidity of the racist right, referring to black people as "they" and regurgitating racist stereotypes.At least it will thunderstorm tonight, and we know how they feel about water. :)
01-29-2020, 12:54 PM
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#196
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Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
You asked for examples, I’m giving you examples. Medical conditions are complex, and medical decision making is complex. A lot of Misc thinks doctors are jokers, if it was that easy, anyone could do it.You con throw whatever big words and medical jargon around, it will always boil down to either A or B.
I don't care what words you use, how big they are, that's a fact of life.
I don't even get what you're saying to do aside from show off your vocabulary.
I don't care what words you use, how big they are, that's a fact of life.
I don't even get what you're saying to do aside from show off your vocabulary.
01-29-2020, 12:57 PM
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#197
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Originally Posted By BOZZ⏩
Once again asking the wrong questions, can't understand.But who were side effects, quality of life and palliative care? Yep definitely A&B
That's on YOU.
But ultimately everything you listed could be boiled down to answering a series of questions.
Like I said it's how people solve problems since time immemorium.
So like when the doctor's treating the patient, he's asking questions that could be answered with either A or B.
You're having trouble realizing you can change out variables.
As stated ITT already the thing stopping it right now is time.
That's because there isn't enough data, or processing power.
Won't always be that way.
The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.
That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.Originally Posted By Dave22reborn^^^Racist police officer who also cries about how racism doesn't exist, also cries reverse racism and typifies the stupidity of the racist right, referring to black people as "they" and regurgitating racist stereotypes.At least it will thunderstorm tonight, and we know how they feel about water. :)
01-29-2020, 01:04 PM
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#198
Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
So it's on who? The patient? A patient is supposed to make an informed decision? A patient who relies on Doctors for information?Once again asking the wrong questions, can't understand.
That's on YOU.
But ultimately everything you listed could be boiled down to answering a series of questions.
Like I said it's how people solve problems since time immemorium.
So like when the doctor's treating the patient, he's asking questions that could be answered with either A or B.
You're having trouble realizing you can change out variables.
As stated ITT already the thing stopping it right now is time.
That's because there isn't enough data, or processing power.
Won't always be that way.
That's on YOU.
But ultimately everything you listed could be boiled down to answering a series of questions.
Like I said it's how people solve problems since time immemorium.
So like when the doctor's treating the patient, he's asking questions that could be answered with either A or B.
You're having trouble realizing you can change out variables.
As stated ITT already the thing stopping it right now is time.
That's because there isn't enough data, or processing power.
Won't always be that way.
01-29-2020, 01:05 PM
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#199
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Originally Posted By Hardlifter9⏩
You're missing the point though.I fully understand that about AI and I know it's not this algorithm that the programmer has to design. But time is the first issue. Just back in 2015, some silicon valley guys said AI will displace tons of jobs before 2020. Nothing happened though.
You need to first develop this technology. Then you need to implement it within the industry and show its success AND safety. Then you need to optimize its price, good luck with that. And then you need to implement it across the country, with a reasonable price, also good luck with that. And multiply that by the coefficient of human acceptance.
It took like 2 decades just to accept eating sushi and another decade to go mainstream.
Lol @ the idea of someone going to the operating room because a robot is 80% sure.
You need to first develop this technology. Then you need to implement it within the industry and show its success AND safety. Then you need to optimize its price, good luck with that. And then you need to implement it across the country, with a reasonable price, also good luck with that. And multiply that by the coefficient of human acceptance.
It took like 2 decades just to accept eating sushi and another decade to go mainstream.
Lol @ the idea of someone going to the operating room because a robot is 80% sure.
We're not talking about a 5 year window, we're talking 20, 30, 50 years. Machine learning becomes better exponentially, and when you combine it with quantum computing and other technological advancements (think robotics/cybernetics) it's hardly outrageous to consider computers will be able to do nearly all jobs humans can doat some point. You're so focused on what machines can do RIGHT NOW (which is actually remarkable tbh if you dig into current machine learning algorithms applications), without considering how fast machine learning progresses (it literally feeds its own progress), and honestly without being in the field i don't know if you can fully grasp this.
I also stated that it may not take all doctors jobs in foreseeable future, but it will aid them such that less doctors will be required because there's less work to go around, as computers will be able to pick up a lot of tasks. Most machine learning algorithm's that do singular tasks make decisions better than humans, because they don't use emotion which clouds judgement to some degree... they use data from millions, or billions of iterations to give the highest % chance of success. It's funny someone mentioned that doctors will have to 'check' the machines decisions, because there's actually huge potential for it to be quite the opposite; machine learning algorithms will be verifying the decisions DOCTORS make and flagging what it believes are errors in judgement based on it's millions/billions of iterations over similar data.
I honestly think there's a lot of confusion/mixed lines in this threads... if you're talking about a 5 year window, then no computers probably won't take doctors jobs... but most people here are talking decades. Machine learning is in its infancy. Not only that, we're also at the birth of quantum computing, these are so much more powerful than basic binary computers using transistors and will cause a revolution in rate of progress when it comes to machine learning. Honestly, the only real question is when, because computers will be doing near enough everything at some point in time whether it's 20 years, 50 years, or 100 years from now... and we're all guessing when, none of us know for a fact.
I have full respect for your profession and i'm not belittling it, it definitely requires the kind of technical skills i pride myself on having as well as being emotionally intensive which is something that is very difficult for a lot of people to deal with (including myself - i actually considered medicine but this side of it put me off as i don't really want to be facing death every day), computers just have the potential to be that good. Even as a software engineer/programmer, i'm not naive to think my job is forever safe from machines either.
Honestly, the only thing i can't see computers doing in the next 50 years is the emotional/support side of the job which will still of course need humans, but never say never either. Technological advancement can be rapid and you never know when there will be a new breakthrough (although with machine learning breakthroughs become more likely). Also, something people are missing is that brains are simply large networks of neural networks and work in exactly the same way as computers (i.e weights go into the neuron, if it reaches it's threshold value it fires (i.e '1') and sends the signal across the synapse otherwise it doesn't fire (i.e '0')), so in theory anything a brain can do, computers have the potential to do one day, it's no different to a hugely complex network of logic gates. There's already tons of jobs being taken by machine learning and it's young, so i'm unsure why you're acting like it hasn't happened.. it has, and it is happening as we speak. There's algorithm's developed 4-5 years ago that are better at predicting survival rates of cancer patients than pathologists, and it also made a breakthrough on how we understand cancerous cells and showed the cells surrounding the cancerous cells are as important for predicting survival as the cancerous cells; which is the opposite of what pathologists have been taught for decades.
When machine learning really hits its stride, it will be on par with the industrial revolution, maybe even more extreme.
Anyway i'm out, i doubt there's gonna be agreement, i just wanted to give my input as someone who actually has experience writing machine learning algorithm's who understands their power and the scope they have for improvement. There's so much misinformation in this thread when it comes to computers and machine learning it's unreal. Machine learning is so different to just writing a program, and it's clear this is going over a lot of peoples heads. If you disagree with me that's fine we're all entitled to an opinion, but i'm not gonna waste time trying to convince you otherwise. However, i would recommend you watch the video i posted as it explains this better than I, along with demonstrations, and it's just fascinating honestly.
01-29-2020, 01:05 PM
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#200
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As a brah who works in top management for GM, I tell the board all the time how BS autonomous driving development is, lol. They wasted almost half a billion developing Super Cuck. But that was before I became team GM instead of team Cuckyota.
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01-29-2020, 01:07 PM
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#201
Originally Posted By Hardlifter9⏩
i'm going to trust an AI more than I trust doctors.I used to think that AI and supercomputers could effectively replace doctors. But now that I'm actually practicing medicine, such an idea is incredibly lolzy at best.
A big part of medicine is art and another big component is personalization. You can program a computer to follow algorithms but the issue is implementation of it and navigating the logistics is a major art. And so many patients don't fit the algorithm.
I also find that a lot of AI proponents think that doctors just treat simple stuff because they themselves are healthy and only go to the doctor for 1-2 minor issues. Truth is, the *real* patients have simultaneous multi-organ disease (in the clinic or in the hospital), have 2 dozen issues and are on 30 medications at once.
A big part of medicine is art and another big component is personalization. You can program a computer to follow algorithms but the issue is implementation of it and navigating the logistics is a major art. And so many patients don't fit the algorithm.
I also find that a lot of AI proponents think that doctors just treat simple stuff because they themselves are healthy and only go to the doctor for 1-2 minor issues. Truth is, the *real* patients have simultaneous multi-organ disease (in the clinic or in the hospital), have 2 dozen issues and are on 30 medications at once.
doctors are basically making guesses, and what is better at making guesses? computer with big data
01-29-2020, 01:08 PM
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#202
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I have much more to say but i think the big proponents of ai are weirdos
01-29-2020, 01:10 PM
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#203
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Pretty ignorant to think ai won't replace most of doctor's work eventually. They can process an infinite amount more information then we could even comprehend in fractions of a second.
Its literally just a matter of time. Probably the last thing to be automated are alot of skilled trades. Anything that requires data and information processing in a fixed environment is prime real estate to be taken over by ai/automation
Its literally just a matter of time. Probably the last thing to be automated are alot of skilled trades. Anything that requires data and information processing in a fixed environment is prime real estate to be taken over by ai/automation
RON PAUL 2012
01-29-2020, 01:13 PM
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#204
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Yall dont understand. Computers are input/ output
Autonomy is the thing theyre going to struggle with
You MAY be able to replicate it (intelligence) or make it seem like it by introducing a ton of volume/ variables. But input/ output is precisely NOT the problem. Its what comes in between the input/ outputs that is so hard to define and replicate
Heres just half of a page on it:
Autonomy is the thing theyre going to struggle with
You MAY be able to replicate it (intelligence) or make it seem like it by introducing a ton of volume/ variables. But input/ output is precisely NOT the problem. Its what comes in between the input/ outputs that is so hard to define and replicate
Heres just half of a page on it:
Qualia are the phenomenal qualities of experiences—the raw felt qualities of sensations, emotions, thoughts, or anything else. They are experienced privately, subjectively, and directly; all the content of consciousness states is made of them.
How do you know that you’re conscious?
You probably answer, because you’re experiencing something—thoughts, feelings, sensations, sights, or sounds. But a camera can also have images. Does a photograph or computer screen experience the image? What’s the difference between your experience of an image and an image as an artifact? One answer is, there is something it is like to see an image. There is nothing it is like to be a photograph (as far as we can tell).
There is “something it is like” to hear a guitar, see a sunset, or feel someone’s arm brush against yours. There is something it is like to have a thought or feel an emotion. And this is what a computer doesn’t have. It may record a guitar, even identify the rhythm, timber, and pitches. It can know the shape of the sound-waves. But there is nothing it is like to be the computer experiencing those things (probably).
The qualities of experiences are called qualia – sometimes referred to as “raw feels”— such as the raw sensation of C-sharp, a flash of lightning, or someone’s skin against yours. Or what happiness feels like.
Qualia are central to the questions “what is consciousness” and “how does the brain generate consciousness”? And qualia can be difficult to talk or even think about clearly; some people argue very seriously that they don’t exist. While others have argued that only qualia exist!
Here are some often recognized properties of qualia (all debatable):
That they are ineffable (indescribable)
They are non-physical
They are irreducible (cannot be taken apart into simpler pieces that are not qualia)
They are private; you can never experience someone else’s qualia.
They are experienced directly; you don’t need anything to tell you whether you’re experiencing qualia – if you seem to be, you are!
They are not identical to the physical processes that cause them.
Some of these properties present major questions for philosophy and science:
How can physical brain processes have non-physical properties? This is called “the hard problem” of consciousness.
If they’re not identical to the physical processes, what is the extra something? This is the “knowledge problem” and the “explanatory gap.”
Are they functional? If not, why do we have them?
Are they representational? Conceptual? Intentional? (see section four)
So, qualia take us right to the heart of the most difficult topic in philosophy – consciousness; hang on to your hat!
II. The History of Qualia
The word “qualia” is plural. The singular is “quale” (pronounced ‘KWA-lay’). These are forms of the Latin word for “what sort” or “what kind.”
The first person to use “qualia” in its modern sense was Clarence Irving Lewis, in 1929. And the discussion about qualia really got rolling in the 60s and 70s, especially following Thomas Nagel’s 1974 article “What it is like to be a bat” where he defined consciousness as having a “what it is like” to be something.
The first debates about qualia revolved around the philosophy of functionalism, historically associated with behaviorism in psychology. Functionalism defines cognitive processes in terms of what they do. It is associated with “identity theory,” an assumption of physicalism, which says that mental processes are identical to the neurological events which correspond to them.
Qualia challenge both functionalism and physicalism; historically, this challenge is represented by Frank Jackson’s 1982 “thought experiment” about Mary the neuroscientist (here in my simplified version): Mary is a neuroscientist who has never seen color; she was born that way. Suppose that Mary has the scientific instruments and reference materials necessary to learn everything that can possibly be known about the experience of color in the brain, down to the last detail. Then one day, someone develops a cure for Mary’s color-blindness, and it works. The question is, when Mary sees color for the first time, does she learn anything she didn’t already know? Most people say “yes.” This is known as the “knowledge argument” against physicalism; it supposedly proves that there is something more to qualia than the physical brain processes we can objectively observe.
At the same time, Mary is an argument against functionalism as well, and an argument for what philosophers call “epiphenomenalism” – the idea that qualia have no function—that they cause nothing.
In order to understand why Mary’s experience might imply epiphenomenalism, we can proceed to the next historic thought experiment connected with qualia—David Chalmers’ 1996 “zombies” thought experiment. Which takes us right into “controversies about qualia.”
The subject matter is perhaps best characterized as “the subjective quality of experience.” When we perceive, think, and act, there is a whir of causation and information processing, but this processing does not usually go on in the dark. There is also an internal aspect; there is something it feels like to be a cognitive agent. This internal aspect is conscious experience. Conscious experiences range from vivid color sensations to experiences of the faintest background aromas; from hard-edged pains to the elusive experience of thoughts on the tip of one’s tongue; from mundane sounds and smells to the encompassing grandeur of musical experience; from the triviality of a nagging itch to the weight of a deep existential angst; from the specificity of the taste of peppermint to the generality of one’s experience of selfhood. All these have a distinct experienced quality. All are prominent parts of the inner life of the mind. We can say that a being is conscious if there is something it is like to be that being, to use a phrase made famous by Thomas Nagel.” ― David J. Chalmers, The Conscious Mind: In Search of a Fundamental Theory
This quotation from David Chalmers nicely summarizes the mystery of qualia and how it’s framed by contemporary philosophers.
Quotation #2:
“Esse est percipi, to be is to be perceived, said good old Berkeley; but, according to most philosophers, he was wrong. Yet, obviously, there are things for which the adage holds. Perception, trivially, to begin with. If elements of conscious awareness–pains, tickles, feelings of heat and cold, sensory qualia of colors, sounds, and the like–have any existence, it must consist in their being perceived by a subject…. This shows, of course, that such experiences are epiphenomenal, at least with respect to the physical world.” – Zeno Vendler
How do you know that you’re conscious?
You probably answer, because you’re experiencing something—thoughts, feelings, sensations, sights, or sounds. But a camera can also have images. Does a photograph or computer screen experience the image? What’s the difference between your experience of an image and an image as an artifact? One answer is, there is something it is like to see an image. There is nothing it is like to be a photograph (as far as we can tell).
There is “something it is like” to hear a guitar, see a sunset, or feel someone’s arm brush against yours. There is something it is like to have a thought or feel an emotion. And this is what a computer doesn’t have. It may record a guitar, even identify the rhythm, timber, and pitches. It can know the shape of the sound-waves. But there is nothing it is like to be the computer experiencing those things (probably).
The qualities of experiences are called qualia – sometimes referred to as “raw feels”— such as the raw sensation of C-sharp, a flash of lightning, or someone’s skin against yours. Or what happiness feels like.
Qualia are central to the questions “what is consciousness” and “how does the brain generate consciousness”? And qualia can be difficult to talk or even think about clearly; some people argue very seriously that they don’t exist. While others have argued that only qualia exist!
Here are some often recognized properties of qualia (all debatable):
That they are ineffable (indescribable)
They are non-physical
They are irreducible (cannot be taken apart into simpler pieces that are not qualia)
They are private; you can never experience someone else’s qualia.
They are experienced directly; you don’t need anything to tell you whether you’re experiencing qualia – if you seem to be, you are!
They are not identical to the physical processes that cause them.
Some of these properties present major questions for philosophy and science:
How can physical brain processes have non-physical properties? This is called “the hard problem” of consciousness.
If they’re not identical to the physical processes, what is the extra something? This is the “knowledge problem” and the “explanatory gap.”
Are they functional? If not, why do we have them?
Are they representational? Conceptual? Intentional? (see section four)
So, qualia take us right to the heart of the most difficult topic in philosophy – consciousness; hang on to your hat!
II. The History of Qualia
The word “qualia” is plural. The singular is “quale” (pronounced ‘KWA-lay’). These are forms of the Latin word for “what sort” or “what kind.”
The first person to use “qualia” in its modern sense was Clarence Irving Lewis, in 1929. And the discussion about qualia really got rolling in the 60s and 70s, especially following Thomas Nagel’s 1974 article “What it is like to be a bat” where he defined consciousness as having a “what it is like” to be something.
The first debates about qualia revolved around the philosophy of functionalism, historically associated with behaviorism in psychology. Functionalism defines cognitive processes in terms of what they do. It is associated with “identity theory,” an assumption of physicalism, which says that mental processes are identical to the neurological events which correspond to them.
Qualia challenge both functionalism and physicalism; historically, this challenge is represented by Frank Jackson’s 1982 “thought experiment” about Mary the neuroscientist (here in my simplified version): Mary is a neuroscientist who has never seen color; she was born that way. Suppose that Mary has the scientific instruments and reference materials necessary to learn everything that can possibly be known about the experience of color in the brain, down to the last detail. Then one day, someone develops a cure for Mary’s color-blindness, and it works. The question is, when Mary sees color for the first time, does she learn anything she didn’t already know? Most people say “yes.” This is known as the “knowledge argument” against physicalism; it supposedly proves that there is something more to qualia than the physical brain processes we can objectively observe.
At the same time, Mary is an argument against functionalism as well, and an argument for what philosophers call “epiphenomenalism” – the idea that qualia have no function—that they cause nothing.
In order to understand why Mary’s experience might imply epiphenomenalism, we can proceed to the next historic thought experiment connected with qualia—David Chalmers’ 1996 “zombies” thought experiment. Which takes us right into “controversies about qualia.”
The subject matter is perhaps best characterized as “the subjective quality of experience.” When we perceive, think, and act, there is a whir of causation and information processing, but this processing does not usually go on in the dark. There is also an internal aspect; there is something it feels like to be a cognitive agent. This internal aspect is conscious experience. Conscious experiences range from vivid color sensations to experiences of the faintest background aromas; from hard-edged pains to the elusive experience of thoughts on the tip of one’s tongue; from mundane sounds and smells to the encompassing grandeur of musical experience; from the triviality of a nagging itch to the weight of a deep existential angst; from the specificity of the taste of peppermint to the generality of one’s experience of selfhood. All these have a distinct experienced quality. All are prominent parts of the inner life of the mind. We can say that a being is conscious if there is something it is like to be that being, to use a phrase made famous by Thomas Nagel.” ― David J. Chalmers, The Conscious Mind: In Search of a Fundamental Theory
This quotation from David Chalmers nicely summarizes the mystery of qualia and how it’s framed by contemporary philosophers.
Quotation #2:
“Esse est percipi, to be is to be perceived, said good old Berkeley; but, according to most philosophers, he was wrong. Yet, obviously, there are things for which the adage holds. Perception, trivially, to begin with. If elements of conscious awareness–pains, tickles, feelings of heat and cold, sensory qualia of colors, sounds, and the like–have any existence, it must consist in their being perceived by a subject…. This shows, of course, that such experiences are epiphenomenal, at least with respect to the physical world.” – Zeno Vendler
01-29-2020, 01:15 PM
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#205
- MBisonSon
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- MBisonSon
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Originally Posted By BOZZ⏩
No.So it's on who? The patient? A patient is supposed to make an informed decision? A patient who relies on Doctors for information?
It's on YOU that you don't get it and hence don't believe it.
Think about it like a flow chart if it helps.
Any time we encounter problems we basically run through a flow chart in our heads.
Is the lawnmower broken? Yes or no?
If yes fix it, if no, don't fix it.
If yes, next question, is it ______, if not then refer to B.
Do you get it now?
I'm starting to think the real issue ITT are people's egos won't allow them to see the writing on the wall.
The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.
That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.Originally Posted By Dave22reborn^^^Racist police officer who also cries about how racism doesn't exist, also cries reverse racism and typifies the stupidity of the racist right, referring to black people as "they" and regurgitating racist stereotypes.At least it will thunderstorm tonight, and we know how they feel about water. :)
01-29-2020, 01:15 PM
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#206
01-29-2020, 01:54 PM
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#207
Originally Posted By TappingTheZen⏩
very, very unrealAnyway i'm out, i doubt there's gonna be agreement, i just wanted to give my input as someone who actually has experience writing machine learning algorithm's who understands their power and the scope they have for improvement.There's so much misinformation in this thread when it comes to computers and machine learning it's unreal. Machine learning is so different to just writing a program, and it's clear this is going over a lot of peoples heads. If you disagree with me that's fine we're all entitled to an opinion, but i'm not gonna waste time trying to convince you otherwise. However, i would recommend you watch the video i posted as it explains this better than I, along with demonstrations, and it's just fascinating honestly.
MS, Computer Science
Feel free to PM me CS questions
01-29-2020, 02:00 PM
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#208
- mandarino
- Registered User
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- mandarino
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- Join Date: Feb 2007
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Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
Have you ever watched Dr House? Thats how you example looks like. Without emotion and without taking the patient as a whole. Its impossibleOnce again asking the wrong questions, can't understand.
That's on YOU.
But ultimately everything you listed could be boiled down to answering a series of questions.
Like I said it's how people solve problems since time immemorium.
So like when the doctor's treating the patient, he's asking questions that could be answered with either A or B.
You're having trouble realizing you can change out variables.
As stated ITT already the thing stopping it right now is time.
That's because there isn't enough data, or processing power.
Won't always be that way.
That's on YOU.
But ultimately everything you listed could be boiled down to answering a series of questions.
Like I said it's how people solve problems since time immemorium.
So like when the doctor's treating the patient, he's asking questions that could be answered with either A or B.
You're having trouble realizing you can change out variables.
As stated ITT already the thing stopping it right now is time.
That's because there isn't enough data, or processing power.
Won't always be that way.
01-29-2020, 04:48 PM
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#209
- kingmidasX
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- kingmidasX
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Originally Posted By mandarino⏩
I've seen Dr. House and people literally refuse to get treated by everyone else except him. They would literally die sometimes instead of getting a "normal intelligent" doctor. There is something special with knowing that your opposite is extremely intelligent/knows it all and it that case it would be AI/ML.Have you ever watched Dr House? Thats how you example looks like. Without emotion and without taking the patient as a whole. Its impossible
Imagine your life being dependent on the right diagnosis, meanwhile 5 different doctors say 5 different things, wouldn't you just choose the damn House and just get other the emotional stuff and have a chance of being saved? I for myself would choose an AI/ML powered consultant type of doctor (let's assume that doctors now evolve into some medicine consultants that just check the ML results) over a normal doctor, even though my respect for doctors is very high.
01-29-2020, 04:52 PM
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#210
Originally Posted By propreffered7⏩
yeah no, what do we call experience and intuition, AI calls "big data" and it'll have more "experience" than any doctor will have haveYall dont understand. Computers are input/ output
Autonomy is the thing theyre going to struggle with
You MAY be able to replicate it (intelligence) or make it seem like it by introducing a ton of volume/ variables. But input/ output is precisely NOT the problem. Its what comes in between the input/ outputs that is so hard to define and replicate
Heres just half of a page on it:
Autonomy is the thing theyre going to struggle with
You MAY be able to replicate it (intelligence) or make it seem like it by introducing a ton of volume/ variables. But input/ output is precisely NOT the problem. Its what comes in between the input/ outputs that is so hard to define and replicate
Heres just half of a page on it:
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