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Forum » Practicing medicine now, I see just how immune doctors are from AI/automation (srs)
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Thread: Practicing medicine now, I see just how immune doctors are from AI/automation (srs)

post 1596679771 01-30-2020, 12:42 AM
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[QUOTE=SurgeonBrah post_id=1596679561][/B]


You know nothing of Surgery and Medicine to make a statement like this.


Also, don't confuse robotics and AI - the former is currently and effectively used in certain procedures although the long term outcomes are generally not significantly superior than if the procedures were performed without robotic assistance or other non-robotic techniques were used.
[URL=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect[/URL][/QUOTE]Lmfao at don't confuse "robotics and AI". If you are in denial of the ability of AI to inform robotics, then there is no hope for you.

And thanks for the dunnings-kruger chart:

[img]https://i.imgur.com/WvBanwC.png[/img]
post 1596679881 01-30-2020, 12:44 AM
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most doctors are fuking useless
post 1596679921 01-30-2020, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted By Serenadium⏩
Lmfao at don't confuse "robotics and AI". If you are in denial of the ability of AI to inform robotics, then there is no hope for you.

And thanks for the dunnings-kruger chart:

You are making statements based on speculation

ie - AI will replace Surgeons and Doctorsbecause one day they will have the same capacity as a human

I am making statements based on facts

There is a uniquely human element to medicine that cannot be reproduced to an effective degree by anything other than a human.

My statement is based on a career in the field of Medicine and Surgery. I know infinitely more about this than you do or ever will.

You make statements about my profession without having worked in it, studied it or having even a beginner level understanding of what we do.

Yet I am somehow on the left of that curve?

Please enlighten me as to how this is so?

Also lol at misinterpreting my meaning of the difference between AI and Robotics - you use the terms interchangeably.
Of course AI can control robotics, currently Humans do to the capacity that Robotics are helpful in certain surgical situations.
I do not see a future where there will be a robotic operating tool in an operating theatre controlled by an AI performing surgery on a consented and anaesthetised patient without any human input.

For reasons you don't seem capable of understanding - Medicine/Surgery is not the same as fixing a car or building a house...
This is where your confidence in your argument is laughable
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

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post 1596680111 01-30-2020, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted By SurgeonBrah⏩
You are making statements based on speculation

ie - AI will replace Surgeons and Doctorsbecause one day they will have the same capacity as a human

I am making statements based on facts

There is a uniquely human element to medicine that cannot be reproduced to an effective degree by anything other than a human.

My statement is based on a career in the field of Medicine and Surgery. I know infinitely more about this than you do or ever will.

You make statements about my profession without having worked in it, studied it or having even a beginner level understanding of what we do.

Yet I am somehow on the left of that curve?

Please enlighten me as to how this is so?
Except I am not making speculation.

THe primitive standard of AITODAY exceed the best humans in their programmed field of specialisation (Chess, GO, online gaming etc).

It looks like you are heavily invested in your field of endeavour and you can't handle something that threatens to replace you. Don't feel too bad because it will replace every other profession mine included.

Also being a medical professional doesn't make you some kind of "creative special thinking" snowflake son, every person who is threatened by robotics makes a similar argument about creative input in their respective professions.

Based on the arguments I am hearing from you guys so far, it just reaffirms my belief that when the time comes, I would 100% opt for a robot over a human surgeon.
post 1596680221 01-30-2020, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted By Serenadium⏩
Except I am not making speculation.

THe primitive standard of AITODAY exceed the best humans in their programmed field of specialisation (Chess, GO, online gaming etc).

It looks like you are heavily invested in your field of endeavour and you can't handle something that threatens to replace you. Don't feel too bad because it will replace every other profession mine included.

Also being a medical professional doesn't make you some kind of "creative special thinking" snowflake son, every person who is threatened by robotics makes a similar argument about creative input in their respective professions.

Based on the arguments I am hearing from you guys so far, it just reaffirms my belief that when the time comes, I would 100% opt for a robot over a human surgeon.
Are you really saying that AI mastery of something with finite and rigid rules is even remotely similar to what can occur in the human body?
post 1596680311 01-30-2020, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted By Serenadium⏩
You just proved the case for AI/robotics.

The robot will:
- Through machine learning + endless data input, robots will examine and analyse the patient to a far greater level of detail than a human ever could resulting in a far stronger chance of a successful operation.
- Talking to nurses/specialists? this is not even an issue. Putting aside information input/output for a robot is a trivial challenge and a strength (i.e. exchange of a huge amount of information in nanoseconds), the robot wouldn't need support staff - this is a human limitation. A robot can have en endless amount of functions that is limited only by the fleeting time they need to 'learn'. They will eventually learn to do everything need in the medical room.
- Husband yelling at them?, why the robot would just ignore this and proceed as per protocol. A human could be distracted and create complications.
Youre talking about supercomputers designed with a specific function that limit itself compared to a human brain; in other words they were designed to do one thing. A human brain has 10^11 (one hundred billion) neurons has on average 7,000 synaptic connections to other neurons. It has been estimated that the brain of a three-year-old child has about 10¹⁵ synapses (1quadrillion)

They are limited by the language and algorithims you place in it. They can mix and match those things and "learn" based on that, but its still limited by what you program into it; it is not fully functioning making decisions on its own

What are your thoughts on furbur (the creator of the super computer most closely resembling the brain) stating that:
"With all its computing power and brain-like capabilities, how close is SpiNNaker to behaving like a real human brain? For now, exactly simulating a human brain is simply not possible, Furber said. An advanced machine such as SpiNNaker can still manage only a fraction of the communication performed by a human brain, and supercomputers have a long way to go before they can think for themselves, Furber wrote in the email.

“Even with a million processors, we can only approach 1 percent of the scale of the human brain, and that’s with a lot of simplifying assumptions,” he said.
I mean this is prob 1 1000th of the complexity regarding the brain, but some more:

One of the things that truly sets brains apart, aside from their clear advantage in raw computing power, is the flexibility that it displays. Essentially, the human brain can rewire itself, a feat more formally known as neuroplasticity. Neurons are able to disconnect and reconnect with others, and even change in their basic features, something that a carefully constructed computer cannot do.

We see this amazing transformative feat in a wide variety of brain functions, such as the formations of memory, knowledge acquisition, physical development, and even recovery from brain damage. When the brain identifies a more efficient or effective way to compute and function, it can morph and alter its physical and neuronal structure, hence the term “plasticity“. Until we achieve true Artificial Intelligence (in which computers should theoretically be able to re-wire themselves), neuroplasticity will always keep the human brain at least one step ahead of “static” supercomputer

I will agree that a "supercomputer" or ai can be programmed to do certain tasks but to suggest they are even a smidgeon close to complexity of the brain is a bit much
post 1596680371 01-30-2020, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted By Serenadium⏩
Except I am not making speculation.

THe primitive standard of AITODAY exceed the best humans in their programmed field of specialisation (Chess, GO, online gaming etc).

It looks like you are heavily invested in your field of endeavour and you can't handle something that threatens to replace you. Don't feel too bad because it will replace every other profession mine included.

Also being a medical professional doesn't make you some kind of "creative special thinking" snowflake son, every person who is threatened by robotics makes a similar argument about creative input in their respective professions.

Based on the arguments I am hearing from you guys so far, it just reaffirms my belief that when the time comes, I would 100% opt for a robot over a human surgeon.
My lord. Let me break it down to you in dot point so you can follow my simple little friend.

The question in this thread is
- can AI function to the same capacity as a Doctor or a Surgeon

Me - Surgeon. Understands what a Doctor/Surgeon does. Understands how hugely complex the field is and how it involves much much much more than just being able to make a cut and close a wound.

You - Unsure. haven't told us yet. Keeps using arguments like current AI is good at chess and online gambling.... Uses the aforementioned argument that Current AI is good at chess and gambling to TRY TO PERSUADE ME that AI is therefore going to be superior to meone dayin my field. No causal link whatsoever or data to back up claims

Me - suggests that your argument is based on speculation (i.e. there is no evidence currently that would link the ability of a person or AI that is good at chess or gambling to having the same equivalent skill as a doctor/surgeon), trying to PERSUADE you that your argument is not based on fact/experience or any knowledge of the field that purport to know about.
In simple terms, you're arguing apples when we are talking oranges

You - uses same argument again.

Everyone else reading this thread
- seeing you display the most basic lack of ability to formulate and execute a simple argument based on logic and fact.
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

*Mod negged survivor*

Here for a laugh and to escape the grind, don't take too much of what I say too seriously.

Look after your health/body, we only get one shot at it
post 1596680441 01-30-2020, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted By BOZZ⏩
Are you really saying that AI mastery of something with finite and rigid rules is even remotely similar to what can occur in the human body?
I think he truly is you know... but let him continue ranting!
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

*Mod negged survivor*

Here for a laugh and to escape the grind, don't take too much of what I say too seriously.

Look after your health/body, we only get one shot at it
post 1596680621 01-30-2020, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted By Hardlifter9⏩
I used to think that AI and supercomputers could effectively replace doctors. But now that I'm actually practicing medicine, such an idea is incredibly lolzy at best.
A big part of medicine is art and another big component is personalization. You can program a computer to follow algorithms but the issue is implementation of it and navigating the logistics is a major art. And so many patients don't fit the algorithm.

I also find that a lot of AI proponents think that doctors just treat simple stuff because they themselves are healthy and only go to the doctor for 1-2 minor issues. Truth is, the *real* patients have simultaneous multi-organ disease (in the clinic or in the hospital), have 2 dozen issues and are on 30 medications at once.
Computers may actually do some good and try and cure the patient though, rather than play into the hands of pharmaceutical companies and just keep the patient alive and ill as long as possible to keep feeding them pills and profits high.

Also 90% of doctors are flat out ****.....so become the 10% and actually do some good op....rather than a script writer.
post 1596680641 01-30-2020, 01:16 AM
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A simple Google search with my pathetic Surgeon brain revealed this article.

I encourage any experts in the AI field here on the Misc to read this and explain to me

1. Is this up to date and accurate
2 How the advances will be made in AI learning to be able to accurately replicate emotional reasoning, situational awareness, problem solving of complex non-binary issues, etc etc - all skills vital to medical professionals.

I am not being facetious I would genuinely appreciate the input. Then - we can have constructive arguments about the progress our Robotic overlords will have.

I am very happy to be engaged in constructive non-speculative debate!

https://www.wired.com/story/greedy-b...deep-learning/
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

*Mod negged survivor*

Here for a laugh and to escape the grind, don't take too much of what I say too seriously.

Look after your health/body, we only get one shot at it
post 1596680671 01-30-2020, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted By SurgeonBrah⏩
My lord. Let me break it down to you in dot point so you can follow my simple little friend.

The question in this thread is
- can AI function to the same capacity as a Doctor or a Surgeon

Me - Surgeon. Understands what a Doctor/Surgeon does. Understands how hugely complex the field is and how it involves much much much more than just being able to make a cut and close a wound.

You - Unsure. haven't told us yet. Keeps using arguments like current AI is good at chess and online gambling.... Uses the aforementioned argument that Current AI is good at chess and gambling to TRY TO PERSUADE ME that AI is therefore going to be superior to meone dayin my field. No causal link whatsoever or data to back up claims

Me - suggests that your argument is based on speculation (i.e. there is no evidence currently that would link the ability of a person or AI that is good at chess or gambling to having the same equivalent skill as a doctor/surgeon), trying to PERSUADE you that your argument is not based on fact/experience or any knowledge of the field that purport to know about.
In simple terms, you're arguing apples when we are talking oranges

You - uses same argument again.

Everyone else reading this thread
- seeing you display the most basic lack of ability to formulate and execute a simple argument based on logic and fact.
Yea, good job spending 10+ minutes writing up a false narrative that significantly in your favour?. Also by the way you write and refer to yourself in third person, I can tell you are absolutely full of yourself and its cringeworthy. I posted ITT not because I think people like you can be changed but others will have the best information possible to make decision on the matter.

You are too invested to debate this logically so I'm out, and I'm glad most people (or at least a significant portion) ITT think otherwise.
post 1596681081 01-30-2020, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted By SurgeonBrah⏩
A simple Google search with my pathetic Surgeon brain revealed this article.

I encourage any experts in the AI field here on the Misc to read this and explain to me

1. Is this up to date and accurate
2 How the advances will be made in AI learning to be able to accurately replicate emotional reasoning, situational awareness, problem solving of complex non-binary issues, etc etc - all skills vital to medical professionals.

I am not being facetious I would genuinely appreciate the input. Then - we can have constructive arguments about the progress our Robotic overlords will have.

I am very happy to be engaged in constructive non-speculative debate!

https://www.wired.com/story/greedy-b...deep-learning/
Ive asked and that one poster stated that its not possible yet to mimic these traits. Maybe in 100 years
post 1596681091 01-30-2020, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted By Serenadium⏩
Yea, good job spending 10+ minutes writing up a false narrative that significantly in your favour?. Also by the way you write and refer to yourself in third person, I can tell you are absolutely full of yourself and its cringeworthy. I posted ITT not because I think people like you can be changed but others will have the best information possible to make decision on the matter.

You are too invested to debate this logically so I'm out, and I'm glad most people (or at least a significant portion) ITT think otherwise.
False narrative? The only false narrative here is the equivalence of a chess bot to a trained medical professional!

You didn't provide any useful information though. Your information has been refuted multiple times, by more than just myself.

You did not provide a logical argument because you don't understand the complexity of what is required to work as a Surgeon - that much is clear.

- your argument was literally that AI will take over from Surgeons because some AI now are good at chess and gambling - IT IS JUST NOT AN EQUIVALENT SKILL-SET!

Why would I not have an investment in wanting the best for peoples health? I have made my CAREER in it! If there was truly evidence to suggest that AI/Robotics is or would be superior to humans as doctors/surgeons I would happily welcome this.

Unfortunately (well fortunately thank god)y, there is 0 evidence to suggest this claim, and your logically fallacies are open for all to see.

Till next time
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

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Here for a laugh and to escape the grind, don't take too much of what I say too seriously.

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post 1596681801 01-30-2020, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted By Serenadium⏩
there is some coping ITT and a severe underestimation of AI/machine learning/robotics.

Primitive level AI like google's Alpha Zero can beat witheasethe best chess grandmasters and Stockfish (3000+ elo) with 4-10 hours of match simulation. Another primitive AI in OpenAI can beat the best Dota 2 players in the world with a minimal match simulation - this is a game that has endless combinations of inputs like positioning, timing, itemisation etc.

While medical specialists would be one of the last to go, once things get on a roll, the gap between the middle and last won't be very long. Surgery is actually one of the best use cases for robotics.

Ironically the only professions that may remain will be content creators: artists, athletes, musicians, TV/movie creators, authors, chefs etc, and this is questionable. Eventually, through machine learning, robots will be able to create content that is indistinguishable from humans. The professions above will only remain if there is a desire from humans to usehumancreated content.
Honestly, they're just too dumb.

They think citing historically wrong predictions makes them right about the future.

These people have no idea about punctuated equilibrium, non-linearity and how quickly AI can scale.

They think that because AI sucks today, it's like a human sucking at something, what they don't realize is that AI doesn't progress like humans.

30 years ago, it got owned by chess GMs, 20 years ago there were AI that could beat GMs without much problem, 10 years ago there was AI that you can DL on your phone that would smash the best human minds.

The problem is that responding to them just feeds their delusions, it is the equivalent of trying to teach an unmotivated fatty about macros, programming and wrong ideas in fitness, if the fatty is unmotivated no explaining will do, they'll all just chant along

"OMG CAN YOU IMAGINE X???? WELL, WELL WHAT ABOUT BAD PREDICTION Y????? DUDE AI IS NOT GOING TO DO THAT MAN, TRUST ME BRO, I'M IN THE PROFESSION"

Awful horrendous arguments galore.
post 1596682021 01-30-2020, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted By NVious⏩
Honestly, they're just too dumb.

They think citing historically wrong predictions makes them right about the future.

These people have no idea about punctuated equilibrium, non-linearity and how quickly AI can scale.

They think that because AI sucks today, it's like a human sucking at something, what they don't realize is that AI doesn't progress like humans.

30 years ago, it got owned by chess GMs, 20 years ago there were AI that could beat GMs without much problem, 10 years ago there was AI that you can DL on your phone that would smash the best human minds.

The problem is that responding to them just feeds their delusions, it is the equivalent of trying to teach an unmotivated fatty about macros, programming and wrong ideas in fitness, if the fatty is unmotivated no explaining will do, they'll all just chant along

"OMG CAN YOU IMAGINE X???? WELL, WELL WHAT ABOUT BAD PREDICTION Y????? DUDE AI IS NOT GOING TO DO THAT MAN, TRUST ME BRO, I'M IN THE PROFESSION"

Awful horrendous arguments galore.
And yet you come in to post exactly what the rest have. Nothing but hypothetical
post 1596682521 01-30-2020, 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted By NVious⏩
Honestly, they're just too dumb.

They think citing historically wrong predictions makes them right about the future.

These people have no idea about punctuated equilibrium, non-linearity and how quickly AI can scale.

They think that because AI sucks today, it's like a human sucking at something, what they don't realize is that AI doesn't progress like humans.

30 years ago, it got owned by chess GMs, 20 years ago there were AI that could beat GMs without much problem, 10 years ago there was AI that you can DL on your phone that would smash the best human minds.

The problem is that responding to them just feeds their delusions, it is the equivalent of trying to teach an unmotivated fatty about macros, programming and wrong ideas in fitness, if the fatty is unmotivated no explaining will do, they'll all just chant along

"OMG CAN YOU IMAGINE X???? WELL, WELL WHAT ABOUT BAD PREDICTION Y????? DUDE AI IS NOT GOING TO DO THAT MAN, TRUST ME BRO, I'M IN THE PROFESSION"

Awful horrendous arguments galore.
Currently - all evidence I have looked at suggests AI is at the very best A LONG WAY OFF getting CLOSE to replicating the function and capacity of the human brain in all its complexity. My argument is that is required at a BARE MINIMUM to function in the medical profession.

Can any of the AI experts here explain in layman terms HOW the AI learning curve is currently progressing and what the anticipated developmental milestones are?

Article for reference again

https://www.wired.com/story/greedy-b...deep-learning/
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

*Mod negged survivor*

Here for a laugh and to escape the grind, don't take too much of what I say too seriously.

Look after your health/body, we only get one shot at it
post 1596682671 01-30-2020, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted By SurgeonBrah⏩
A simple Google search with my pathetic Surgeon brain revealed this article.

I encourage any experts in the AI field here on the Misc to read this and explain to me

1. Is this up to date and accurate
2 How the advances will be made in AI learning to be able to accurately replicate emotional reasoning, situational awareness, problem solving of complex non-binary issues, etc etc - all skills vital to medical professionals.

I am not being facetious I would genuinely appreciate the input. Then - we can have constructive arguments about the progress our Robotic overlords will have.

I am very happy to be engaged in constructive non-speculative debate!

https://www.wired.com/story/greedy-b...deep-learning/
Everything you do is based on principles.

Principles can be learned, what you are bringing up is merely the complexity of learning them.

It just comes down to; why do humans do things? Because of rules, principles or mental models. Then why can't the AI do those things? It can and it will.

And if you are worried it comes to a point where "it doesn't know what to do," how is this any different than a human being coming to the same point? AIs have solved this problem already by just going to the nearest known similar position in poker and chess.

At the end of the day, AI doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be better than human beings and this is already something we see in many fields.
post 1596682761 01-30-2020, 02:51 AM
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Cliffs of 7 page thread?
RIP Pedro Suarez Vertiz. Te queremos Hermano

If your right leg is Thanksgiving and your left leg is Christmas, can I come and visit you between the holidays?
post 1596682771 01-30-2020, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted By NVious⏩
Honestly, they're just too dumb.

They think citing historically wrong predictions makes them right about the future.

These people have no idea about punctuated equilibrium, non-linearity and how quickly AI can scale.

They think that because AI sucks today, it's like a human sucking at something, what they don't realize is that AI doesn't progress like humans.

30 years ago, it got owned by chess GMs, 20 years ago there were AI that could beat GMs without much problem, 10 years ago there was AI that you can DL on your phone that would smash the best human minds.

The problem is that responding to them just feeds their delusions, it is the equivalent of trying to teach an unmotivated fatty about macros, programming and wrong ideas in fitness, if the fatty is unmotivated no explaining will do, they'll all just chant along

"OMG CAN YOU IMAGINE X???? WELL, WELL WHAT ABOUT BAD PREDICTION Y????? DUDE AI IS NOT GOING TO DO THAT MAN, TRUST ME BRO, I'M IN THE PROFESSION"

Awful horrendous arguments galore.
Bruh. Youre a poker player

Clearly you think youve been involved with these algorithms. Ive posted the synapse responses multiple times cause it shows the capacity of the brain. Writing out a computer program to perform a certain function is not akin, EVEN RIGHT NOW, to you sitting at your computer chair, while your brain is using: sight, sense, smell, auditory, etc. While your eyes are taking milliseconds to respond images, youre going through your knowledge of language to recruit motor functions to type the specific keys you want in order to make sense of your surroundings. You have alert systems, identity, memory processing, subconscious, etc. Working at the same time

To equate what the computer program of an poker playing/ chess playing algorithm with what youre doing is simply writing out the language. Do you see how many fundamental aspects of the brain are not included in the simple process of the coding language compounding algorithims or not? Can the computer algorithm point to itself and say "im that"? Again, it covers, in the super computer artificial mind creating creators head 1% of what the brain does

There are so many, even rudimentary, fundamental aspects not covered by this "ai" that its hard to even talk about
post 1596682851 01-30-2020, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted By SurgeonBrah⏩
Currently - all evidence I have looked at suggests AI is at the very best A LONG WAY OFF getting CLOSE to replicating the function and capacity of the human brain in all its complexity. My argument is that is required at a BARE MINIMUM to function in the medical profession.

Can any of the AI experts here explain in layman terms HOW the AI learning curve is currently progressing and what the anticipated developmental milestones are?

Article for reference again

https://www.wired.com/story/greedy-b...deep-learning/
AI is a "long way off" in the same way humans in 1890 were riding in their horse and buggy and a "long way off" from space. Oh wait, it took us:
20 years to make cars widely available
40 years to make commercial flights widely available
70 years to go to the moon

Horse and buggy 0
Cars 20
Flights 40
Moon 70

What is the game changer here? You are extrapolating relatively slow AI progress to the field. What first principle are you missing? Quantum computers

Google announced it has a quantum computer that is 100 million times faster than any classical computer in its lab

https://www.bernardmarr.com/default.asp?contentID=1193

Once these begin to crunch things, I don't know what you expect if regular computers are already disrupting things for humans, do you think a computer100 million timesmore powerful is going to cause more or less disruption? To what scale?
post 1596682931 01-30-2020, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted By propreffered7⏩
Bruh. Youre a poker player

Clearly you think youve been involved with these algorithims. Ive posted the synapse responses multiple times cause it shows the capacity of the brain. Writing out a computer program to perform a certain function is not akin, EVEN RIGHT NOW, to you sitting at your computer chair, while your brain is using: sight, sense, smell, auditory, etc. While your eyes are taking milliseconds to respond images, youre going through your knowledge of language to recruit motor functions to type the specific keys you want in order to make sense of your surroundings. You have alert systems, identity, memory processing, subconscious, etc. Working at the same time

To equate what the computer program of an poker playing/ chess playing algorithim with what youre doing is simply writing out the language. Do you see how many fundamental aspects of the brain are not included in the simple process of the coding language compounding algorithims or not? Can the computer algorithm point to itself and say "im that"? Again, it covers, in the super computer artificial mind creating creators head 1% of what the brain does

There are so many, even rudimentary, fundamental aspects not covered by this "ai" that its hard to even talk about
AI self teaches via neural networks



It's not "writing code" as you put it, far from it, you program the AI to learn which is a force multiplier.

Now give that neural network 100 million times the capacity via quantum computing and what do you think happens?
post 1596682941 01-30-2020, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted By NVious⏩
Everything you do is based on principles.

Principles can be learned, what you are bringing up is merely the complexity of learning them.

It just comes down to; why do humans do things? Because of rules, principles or mental models. Then why can't the AI do those things? It can and it will.

And if you are worried it comes to a point where "it doesn't know what to do," how is this any different than a human being coming to the same point? AIs have solved this problem already by just going to the nearest known similar position in poker and chess.

At the end of the day, AI doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be better than human beings and this is already something we see in many fields.
Lets move away from the poker and chess examples - I would like to know about the process required to get AI to Human level thinking
- i.e. consciousness/self awareness. Ability to recognise similar intelligence and interact accordingly. To experience and recognise emotions in ones self and others.

How does current AI learning begin to develop that?

It is ok to say you don't know if you don't... I am not trying to be combative

see below
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

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post 1596683001 01-30-2020, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted By NVious⏩
AI self teaches via neural networks



It's not "writing code" as you put it, far from it, you program the AI to learn which is a force multiplier.

Now give that neural network 100 million times the capacity via quantum computing and what do you think happens?
Qauntum computers can be 1 or 2 simultaneously, so simply open up the # of possibilities. This has nothing to do with a computer program being able to turn on itself and recognize itself as you can with consciousness does it? Ive posted at least a hundred problems throughout the thread and qualia are one of them

Again, ive said many times that volume can give the illusion of "free will" - simply by introducing more inputs it could give the illusion of "choice" but it is not autonomous free will - which, again, i know is debatable in and of itself. But is nonetheless a criterion used in consciousness and autonomy
post 1596683011 01-30-2020, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted By NVious⏩
AI self teaches via neural networks



It's not "writing code" as you put it, far from it, you program the AI to learn which is a force multiplier.

Now give that neural network 100 million times the capacity via quantum computing and what do you think happens?
That argument was refuted in the article I posted - simply making a more powerful computer to process these 'learnings' faster is not akin to the human mind and its ability to learn.

“People naively believe that if you take deep learning and scale it 100 times more layers, and add 1000 times more data, a neural net will be able to do anything a human being can do,” says François Chollet, a researcher at Google. “But that’s just not true.”
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

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Here for a laugh and to escape the grind, don't take too much of what I say too seriously.

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post 1596683031 01-30-2020, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted By SurgeonBrah⏩
Lets move away from the poker and chess examples - I would like to know about the process required to get AI to Human level thinking
- i.e. consciousness/self awareness. Ability to recognise similar intelligence and interact accordingly. To experience and recognise emotions in ones self and others.

How does current AI learning begin to develop that?

It is ok to say you don't know if you don't... I am not trying to be combative

see below
This has nothing to do with AI performing surgeries.
post 1596683041 01-30-2020, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted By SurgeonBrah⏩
That argument was refuted in the article I posted - simply making a more powerful computer to process these 'learnings' faster is not akin to the human mind and its ability to learn.

“People naively believe that if you take deep learning and scale it 100 times more layers, and add 1000 times more data, a neural net will be able to do anything a human being can do,” says François Chollet, a researcher at Google. “But that’s just not true.”
I can quote people too, problem is that you have no idea what you're quoting, who you're quoting or why he is right or wrong.

You keep clinging on to the article and I'll stick to first principles.
post 1596683111 01-30-2020, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted By NVious⏩
This has nothing to do with AI performing surgeries.
I don't know what you mean here - do you mean you are not trying to suggest that AI can perform Surgery or that AI doesn't need to develop human level thinking to be CAPABLE of performing Surgery?

This point is the whole point of the debate on here - I don't think AI will get to the point of being capable to think with human brain level processing (what I would consider minimum requirement to function as a Doctor/Surgeon)
The other side do

Are we debating different ideas?

I am trying to get the other sides evidence that AI will be able to do what they speculate it will be able to
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

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Here for a laugh and to escape the grind, don't take too much of what I say too seriously.

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post 1596683371 01-30-2020, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted By SurgeonBrah⏩
I don't know what you mean here - do you mean you are not trying to suggest that AI can perform Surgery or that AI doesn't need to develop human level thinking to be CAPABLE of performing Surgery?

This point is the whole point of the debate on here - I don't think AI will get to the point of being capable to think with human brain level processing (what I would consider minimum requirement to function as a Doctor/Surgeon)
The other side do

Are we debating different ideas?

I am trying to get the other sides evidence that AI will be able to do what they speculate it will be able to
The AI doesn't need to do "human level thinking," it needs to perform the surgery.

If you want to define human level thinking with your Will Smithesque definition, it's likely the AI is some deals away from that. If you want to define human level thinking as being able to perform a human task at or above human level, we already see what AI can do WITHOUT quantum computers.

Since you know about innovation and AI, you tell me the following:

1.What is punctuated equilibrium and how does it relate to human innovation?

2.Does human innovation progress in linear or non-linear fashions?

3.What is a force multiplier and how does it relate to human innovation?

4.Will quantum computers speed up, slow down or keep innovation at the same pace? To what extent if speed up or slow down?

5.Is surgery based on principles or not? If AI can learn other highly complex activities based on principles, why can't it learn surgery?
post 1596683631 01-30-2020, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted By NVious⏩
The AI doesn't need to do "human level thinking," it needs to perform the surgery.

If you want to define human level thinking with your Will Smithesque definition, it's likely the AI is some deals away from that. If you want to define human level thinking as being able to perform a human task at or above human level, we already see what AI can do WITHOUT quantum computers.

Since you know about innovation and AI, you tell me the following:

1.What is punctuated equilibrium and how does it relate to human innovation?

2.Does human innovation progress in linear or non-linear fashions?

3.What is a force multiplier and how does it relate to human innovation?

4.Will quantum computers speed up, slow down or keep innovation at the same pace? To what extent if speed up or slow down?

5.Is surgery based on principles or not? If AI can learn other highly complex activities based on principles, why can't it learn surgery?
You cant separate the task from the human though, at least not in practicing medicine. This is i think where we are at odds.

The task is not just diagnosing, or treating. The task is treating the patient as a whole. I cant stress that enough. We are complex beings.

If a dude wants antibiotics, and everything points towards him not needing them, then what do you do? A poster above said well we just tell him to gtfo basically. Believe me thats what the doctor wants to do, but its not how it works.
Thats the simplest scenario. What about a young girl who wants contraception who comes with mom. Their views differ on what they want in terms of contraception. Can you pick up on cues that the mother is stressed out and needs an appointment of her own maybe, and shes not even the patient at hand?!

Yes you can make it black and white and say gtfo, or girl needs this contraception because its proven best for that age, but then you are actually going backwards in medicine instead of the supposed upgrades you propose
post 1596683661 01-30-2020, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted By NVious⏩
I can quote people too, problem is that you have no idea what you're quoting, who you're quoting or why he is right or wrong.

You keep clinging on to the article and I'll stick to first principles.
Are the principles of a neural network such that they only have limited outcomes of learning - i.e. facial recognition, self-driving cars etc based on initial input data?

So - you could design an initial AI based off a neural network to create a system to 'learn' how to recognise the difference between faces that could get pretty detailed (i.e. age, race, gender, etc) BUT that same network would never have the capacity to 'learn' how to perform a totally dissimilar task - like learning how to forecast the weather. You would need a different system for that?

Or am I completely wrong?
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

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Here for a laugh and to escape the grind, don't take too much of what I say too seriously.

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