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Forum » Practicing medicine now, I see just how immune doctors are from AI/automation (srs)
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Thread: Practicing medicine now, I see just how immune doctors are from AI/automation (srs)

post 1596728231 01-30-2020, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted By Scarrdbutsmartr⏩
Absolutely and fair enough. The thing that I can encourage you to do is get on the front end of AI. I've implemented AI at my work. Those that were resistant and failed to adapt made themselves extinct. Those that educated themselves and learned to work with AI made themselves irreplaceable (for the time being)...The reality is that AI is a business advantage to you and your patients. If you resist it you become a dinosaur because your competition WILL use it. You can improve your service and drive out cost if you adapt.

I constantly talk to my staff about changing from the old world of doing business to providing new value based off of the analytics and decision making process of AI...Is anyone else out there talking about this -NO. Should high schools, colleges, parents and employers be talking about this - YES! We see this train coming...There will be new careers for kids in school age that will be involved in AI OPs and build around AI OPs. We are preparing our kids for jobs that wont be there or will have modified to the point that the current education system is not prepared to inform/educate. I would HIGHLY recommend a field in robotics or data science/analytics if you are in high school...These careers are going to experience a hug boom and will be around until "the end"..
I am all for tech that makes my job easier and improves outcomes

Do I believe that the same tech will eventually replace what I do as a clinician? no - will it integrate further and further, yes. is that intimidating - yep, but exciting at the same time.
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

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post 1596728281 01-30-2020, 03:59 PM
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I live in the USA and seems whenever I go to the doctor even if it's for a scheduled appointment a guy has to pay for you can tell the doctor doesn't really give that much a crap and may as well be an emotionless robot to begin with.. And secondly, it seems like it's a computer that does the work for them most of time anyway, they bring out their little laptop and ask you a couple question and punch a few more things into the computer and badda bing badda boom "What pharmacy do you prefer sir?".
The doctor's office these days doesn't need real skilled people apparently, they just need data processors and medical coders and someone to clean the toilets.
post 1596728381 01-30-2020, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted By propreffered7⏩
If these ai that we are creating are fully sentient and autonomous why in the world would they not be able to write their own language and program themselves?

That seems like an easier field to acquire than the tactile, tacitly humanistic empathetic field of caring for humans
I think you may have missed my earlier comment - the gist of the comment was that we are all dinosaurs (including me). You want to find a field that last the longest...

..and please know that Im not trying to answer societal questions such as "who buys the goods the robots are producing when no one has jobs"...

Im simply speaking from a technology perspective, thats it...
post 1596728891 01-30-2020, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted By Scarrdbutsmartr⏩
..and please know that Im not trying to answer societal questions such as "who buys the goods the robots are producing when no one has jobs"...

Im simply speaking from a technology perspective, thats it...
To be fair, i think is part of the contention itt. This part isnt yet represented by machines because its not humanistic. Thats why we are talking about the fundamental aspects of the brain that create these things in humans

Morality is a human trait.

Thats why we are bringing up things such as morality and consciousness which are attempting to be replicated by machines, but we arent quite there
post 1596729111 01-30-2020, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted By Scarrdbutsmartr⏩
Agree 100%...AI has accuracy ratings in the high 90% range. Its so far beyond a doctors capabilities its hard to wrap your hands around it. The reality is that if AI predicts with a high level of accuracy thenones hand (government) is almost forced. If AI analyzes the data store and says you have a health issue with 99% accuracy and they dont take action, they can be held accountable.

The concern is if you own the AI, you own the data store and you have bias.... you can make it say anything you want...I could theoretically make it say you have a 1% chance of cancer when you actually have a 99% chance of cancer. We all hope this would never happen and that the cost reductions would be significant enough to prevent these types of shenanigans. In a world where population control and climate change is regularly discussed, who is to say the algorithm isnt programmed to diminish the odds of cancer/cancer treatment after 70....Thin the heard.

Thats a huge leap but I understand the concerns.
Which actually brings me to my next issue that will need to be sorted out; case law. I've seen minimal cases where people have been sued because of errors from AI.

How do you think that it will come out in the end? The end user assumes all liability even if a bias is found in the algorithm? I can just imagine an autonomous Fedex truck from Ohio colliding with an autonomous UPS truck from PA while they're both travelling through West Virginia.
post 1596729711 01-30-2020, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted By propreffered7⏩
To be fair, i think is part of the contention itt. This part isnt yet represented because its not humanistic

Morality is a human trait.

Thats why we are bringing up things such as morality which are attempting to be replicated by machines, but we arent quite there
AI analysis is amoral and indifferent. AI does not make moral decisions (unless you let it off of its leash). It provides analysis and options for resolution and you choose to automated the response. Humans have the final say in what is moral and have to define what actions are taken. Humans will define what the machines can and cant do....

example -
Step 1 - AI states for 98% assurance the following issue can be remediated based upon repetitive pattern discovered by AI
Step 2 - You have the option to manually approve change/decision or you have the option to automate change.
Step 3 - Would you like to automate or maintain manual intervention?
Step 4 - AI will conduct this task anytime a 98% assurance rate occurs
Step 5 - Do you confirm

I wont address letting AI off of the leash.
post 1596730081 01-30-2020, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted By lolXlol⏩
yes... becasue human doctors are infallible

idk you're even defending doctors, these guys are cold blooded extortionists that have no problem bankrupting good hardwarking american families to enrich themselves

the quicker they get replaced the better


great point

doctors are such incompetent bums lol


imagine thinking a technology in it's infancy that's going to be refined over and over is the finished product... like srsly

and again the overarching point is that the replacement is starting to happen, we are on the frontiers of ai development in the medical space and you will soon be on the street working the corners for a living
Not so fast boyo, don’t break your femur or rupture your appendix, you might need one of us bums. Don’t think a machine can save you just yet, if ever.
post 1596730141 01-30-2020, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted By BOZZ⏩
Which actually brings me to my next issue that will need to be sorted out; case law. I've seen minimal cases where people have been sued because of errors from AI.

How do you think that it will come out in the end? The end user assumes all liability even if a bias is found in the algorithm? I can just imagine an autonomous Fedex truck from Ohio colliding with an autonomous UPS truck from PA while they're both travelling through West Virginia.
There are many differing opinions. My personal opinion is that the owner of the analytics/decision making is always culpable. The responsibility of the analysis and percentage rating and subsequently the risk is their responsibility.

At some point (certain industries) will require your liability waiver for risk acceptance based upon analysis. This already occurs in the medical field. On the flipside autonomous vehicles and associated risks are definitely a gray area. The manufacturers are pushing the responsibility back on the operator for responsibility of the percentage gap (as it should be at this point). The race will continue and the expectation as a society will assume responsibility for the gap This will come via government legislature.....
post 1596730171 01-30-2020, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted By Hardlifter9⏩
Old news and discussion. Vast majority of those patients were terminally ill to begin with. The probability of dying from a medical error as a healthy person is virtually nonexistent.
Also includes nursing errors aka administration of correct medicines and dosages.
Strong cope. Doctors aren't special. There are fuk ups in every profession and medicine is no exception. You took classes, applied yourself, kept at it and attained your goal. That's good. However, truly special doctors were born to be. Stop taking yourself so serious. You dont demand any more respect than any average joe that busts their asss for 30 years and lives with integrity.
post 1596731001 01-30-2020, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted By lolXlol⏩
yes... becasue human doctors are infallible

idk you're even defending doctors, these guys are cold blooded extortionists that have no problem bankrupting good hardwarking american families to enrich themselves

the quicker they get replaced the better


great point

doctors are such incompetent bums lol


imagine thinking a technology in it's infancy that's going to be refined over and over is the finished product... like srsly

and again the overarching point is that the replacement is starting to happen, we are on the frontiers of ai development in the medical space and you will soon be on the street working the corners for a living
Doubt it! you are a happy little butterfly aren’t you!
Plastic/Reconstructive =/= Cosmetic Surgery....

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Here for a laugh and to escape the grind, don't take too much of what I say too seriously.

Look after your health/body, we only get one shot at it
post 1596731351 01-30-2020, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted By AltarOfPlagues⏩
theoretically if i know my symptoms and i can sign some waver and put them into a kiosk and get my flexiril scrip, why isnt that better than coming to see you, since my organs arent failing. my medical history is in some theoretical system and i punch in my symptoms.
Any doctor could tell you that patients don't have a clue what their symptoms are lmao. 'Doctor my arm hurts' *patient points at his leg* - I'm not even kidding I've seen this happen. And suppose a patient is smart enough but is also an addict, what's stopping him from putting in 12/10 on the pain scale in hopes of scoring narcotics?

Nobody from the AI crew has been able to succesfully answer my questions about doing a physical examination and feeding the information into the system. Who will do it, how will they do it, and most importantly,how on earth will this make things faster??

My remarks about mental healthcare and patient advocacy groups still stand.

And last question:how will an AI handle ethical issues?When would an AI decide to stop an operation because it decided the chance for survival has gotten too small? What will the margin of error be? Will it stop at 99% chance of death or 99,9% chance of death? Who will decide?
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post 1596733611 01-30-2020, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted By MindDigger⏩
Any doctor could tell you that patients don't have a clue what their symptoms are lmao. 'Doctor my arm hurts' *patient points at his leg* - I'm not even kidding I've seen this happen. And suppose a patient is smart enough but is also an addict, what's stopping him from putting in 12/10 on the pain scale in hopes of scoring narcotics?

Nobody from the AI crew has been able to succesfully answer my questions about doing a physical examination and feeding the information into the system. Who will do it, how will they do it, and most importantly,how on earth will this make things faster??

My remarks about mental healthcare and patient advocacy groups still stand.

And last question:how will an AI handle ethical issues?When would an AI decide to stop an operation because it decided the chance for survival has gotten too small? What will the margin of error be? Will it stop at 99% chance of death or 99,9% chance of death? Who will decide?
^^^This assumes doctors are asking good questions about the symptoms. We know they arent because of the abysmal analysis percentage. If you give the same symptoms to five different doctors the stats show you will get numerous different questions to the patient, two or three different tests assigned and a couple of different diagnosis.

AI resolves all of these ^^^ challenges. I dont mean any offense but AI is better at being a doctor than humans are. I've seen the results and I would trust my life to an AI analysis any day over a human doctor.

In addition the "AI crowd" has clearly stated AI will take over in phases. I dont think anyone is suggesting that docs will go away tomorrow. The doctors themselves will start to engage with AI OPs because its going to reduce your screw ups and potentially significantly lower your malpractice. Your medical group, hospital or your practice will subscribe to a service..You will poke in your data and you will get back an analysis..Do you know why you will do this, because the insurance companies that pay a huge chunk of your salary will require you to do it. They have more faith in AI than they do you and they want to vastly reduce their costs from poor analysis, numerous non required tests and multiple follow ups...Thats why the insurance companies hire internal doctors to argue and dispute analysis tests with doctors.They can reduce their costs based upon what they feel is poor analysis.

Thats not meant to be offensive to you, its just talking about percentages and dollars.....And then the insurance companies will figure out that they dont need a doctor to conduct a simple physical exam and enter data? They will figure out they need a nurse practitioner.....

The writing is on the wall for non centralized medical care and that means the number of doctors in the future will be significantly reduced. Please know that Im not addressing Trauma/ER. Im simply addressing normal general practice and non trauma surgery.

The reality is that almost 100% of medical care is set up to manage reactive care. AI will take us to proactive care...We will have to rethink/reorganize everything.

My position is in the same boat...I will be phased out as well. If you think Im being hateful or taking digs at you, Im not.
post 1596733951 01-30-2020, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted By MindDigger⏩
Any doctor could tell you that patients don't have a clue what their symptoms are lmao. 'Doctor my arm hurts' *patient points at his leg* - I'm not even kidding I've seen this happen. And suppose a patient is smart enough but is also an addict, what's stopping him from putting in 12/10 on the pain scale in hopes of scoring narcotics?

Nobody from the AI crew has been able to succesfully answer my questions about doing a physical examination and feeding the information into the system. Who will do it, how will they do it, and most importantly,how on earth will this make things faster??

My remarks about mental healthcare and patient advocacy groups still stand.

And last question:how will an AI handle ethical issues?When would an AI decide to stop an operation because it decided the chance for survival has gotten too small? What will the margin of error be? Will it stop at 99% chance of death or 99,9% chance of death? Who will decide?
when technology replaces you in the near future social norms will change to reflect the new breed of ai based 'doctors' so this talk about 'ethical issues' is irrelevant, the vast majority of people will accept the tradeoff of muh feelings human doctors and superior ai that has better precision in diagnosing and treating illnesess becasue they know that machines aren't subject to flaws in humans such as laziness, incompetence, hero complexes (something surgeonbrah eveidently knows all too well), being pharma lapdogs etc, machines having zero emotions is what makes them better than you guys, they simply act on inputs


in your example the patient would be required pre operation to choose from a margin of safety they would be comfortable in accepting, in an emergency case there would be regulations in place to determine that threshold, kids like you act like doctors are perfect and have 100% success rates in treating patients lol, newsflash... you don't
post 1596734051 01-30-2020, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted By GerbilFarmer⏩
Cope




Srs. In 10-15 years doctors will be replaced by a roomba.

AI can think in different ways humans never have or could. At a certain point AI will be able to cure all diseases.

Most doctors now just prescribe pills
Negd fgt
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post 1596736121 01-30-2020, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted By Scarrdbutsmartr⏩
^^^This assumes doctors are asking good questions about the symptoms. We know they arent because of the abysmal analysis percentage. If you give the same symptoms to five different doctors the stats show you will get numerous different questions to the patient, two or three different tests assigned and a couple of different diagnosis.
Will you let an AI figure out the questions it needs to ask? How will you know those are the correct questions? How will anyone know that the patient understands these questions and answers them both correctly and truthfully?
AI resolves all of these ^^^ challenges. I dont mean any offense but AI is better at being a doctor than humans are. I've seen the results and I would trust my life to an AI analysis any day over a human doctor.
Good for you but that's not what the ajority of the population prefers. Every day I hear patients complaining about 'science' when they don't hear what they want to hear, you think they will believe something non-human telling them this over a human? People will be 10x more skeptical even if they don't have a reason to be, just look at the public opinion towards self-driving cars.
In addition the "AI crowd" has clearly stated AI will take over in phases. I dont think anyone is suggesting that docs will go away tomorrow. The doctors themselves will start to engage with AI OPs because its going to reduce your screw ups and potentially significantly lower your malpractice. Your medical group, hospital or your practice will subscribe to a service..You will poke in your data and you will get back an analysis..Do you know why you will do this, because the insurance companies that pay a huge chunk of your salary will require you to do it. They have more faith in AI than they do you and they want to vastly reduce their costs from poor analysis, numerous non required tests and multiple follow ups...Thats why the insurance companies hire internal doctors to argue and dispute analysis tests with doctors.They can reduce their costs based upon what they feel is poor analysis.
I can tell you've never dealt with insurance companies' doctors on a professional level. They don't argue because they feel it's "poor analysis", they usually argue because deem the correct analysis too expensive and want to reduce costs. Also I'm not in the US so the whole financing thing will be completely different.
Also I'm a psychiatrist, there will be no "poke in data and get back analysis".
Thats not meant to be offensive to you, its just talking about percentages and dollars.....And then the insurance companies will figure out that they dont need a doctor to conduct a simple physical exam and enter data? They will figure out they need a nurse practitioner.....
Nurse practitioners are mainly a US thing, we don't use them where I live. After working with hundreds of different nurses, there's no way I'd trust a nurse with a physical examination unless their training changes significantly (which it might but that'll take at least 10-20 years).
The writing is on the wall for non centralized medical care and that means the number of doctors in the future will be significantly reduced. Please know that Im not addressing Trauma/ER. Im simply addressing normal general practice and non trauma surgery.
The whole point of this thread is that medicine is so much more than "normal general practice".
The reality is that almost 100% of medical care is set up to manage reactive care. AI will take us to proactive care...We will have to rethink/reorganize everything.
25% of what my GP friends do is prevention/education. Medical care wants to focus on proactive care, however patients don't. Proof: the amount of smokers.
Originally Posted By lolXlol⏩
when technology replaces you in the near future social norms will change to reflect the new breed of ai based 'doctors' so this talk about 'ethical issues' is irrelevant, the vast majority of people will accept the tradeoff of muh feelings human doctors and superior ai that has better precision in diagnosing and treating illnesess becasue they know that machines aren't subject to flaws in humans such as laziness, incompetence, hero complexes (something surgeonbrah eveidently knows all too well), being pharma lapdogs etc, machines having zero emotions is what makes them better than you guys, they simply act on inputs
Except they won't, most people hate interacting with computers.
in your example the patient would be required pre operation to choose from a margin of safety they would be comfortable in accepting
So a guy with an IQ of 70 should be able to figure out which risk they want to accept when they can barely understand the concept of "risk"?
kids like you
Nvm lol you're one of those 70 IQ people.
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post 1596737221 01-30-2020, 06:16 PM
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OP: Stick to medicine.

You're not a computer or data scientist and have no idea what you're talking about.

How does a doctor make a diagnosis? Through observation, data, and facts, correct?

What do you think an AI does?

Only it is able to compare a patient's data against terabytes, if not petabytes, of data.

AI is already able to diagnose breast cancer better than doctors now:https://www.bbc.com/news/health-50857759

AI is coming for you brah. No job is safe.
Misc Entrepreneur Crew
post 1596740001 01-30-2020, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted By MindDigger⏩
Will you let an AI figure out the questions it needs to ask? How will you know those are the correct questions? How will anyone know that the patient understands these questions and answers them both correctly and truthfully?
Data scientist will work with medical research institutes to define the questions, the patterns that need to be recognized as well as many other factors. Then a data store with billions of data points will be pointed at those questions. AI will look at the data from dozens/hundreds of angles. One of the simple angles will be a "back to front" analysis of the questions. A back to front would look at millions of successful analysis and determine which questions were asked to arrive at the conclusion. That provides a very clear scope of the best questions to ask when diagnosing a medical condition. The process repeats infinitely until the percentage of improvement for the questions is near zero. There are hundreds/thousands of pattern searches that AI will conduct. A single pattern search and subsequent data points are something that could not be achieved by hundreds of doctors working for lifetimes. Humans simply dont have the capability to cross check billions/trillions of data points and find patterns for a single data point much less hundreds/thousands...Its beyond human capabilities.

In addition most humans ignore "junk data". We subconsciously tune out data we feel is irrelevant.This is the data that you hear in a patient exam and you immediately think to yourself "thats not important". What we know is that the irrelevant data is actually VERY relevant in terms of trending and patterns. All of that data you ignore, AI OPs is searching, learning and creating patterns. Thats why you dont clean data up before AI analysis. You send everything to the engine and let it analyze. This is why we dont limit data sources facing AI.
I can tell you've never dealt with insurance companies' doctors on a professional level. They don't argue because they feel it's "poor analysis", they usually argue because deem the correct analysis too expensive and want to reduce costs. Also I'm not in the US so the whole financing thing will be completely different.
Also I'm a psychiatrist, there will be no "poke in data and get back analysis".
Im not suggesting a process or trying to outline exactly how all cost reductions could/will occur. Im not a doctor. Im in technology and I've been involved in case studies. As you claimed yourself we know that insurance companies push back on testing they may feel isnt necessary and can save money. If AI can prevent doctors from ordering poor tests or unneeded tests that will reduce their costs. If AI can suggest test that have an accuracy rating in the high 90s that can prove their analysis, that saves money. This one example is the tip of the iceberg in regards to cost reduction. There are hundreds of cost reduction opportunities that the health insurance companies/governments will drive. The tax payers/health insurance payers will demand it.

Nurse practitioners are mainly a US thing, we don't use them where I live. After working with hundreds of different nurses, there's no way I'd trust a nurse with a physical examination unless their training changes significantly (which it might but that'll take at least 10-20 years).
There are dozens of variances in the global medical infrastructure. The common trait is that all of them are trying to provide the best care while reducing cost and or maximizing their profit. Thats why Im suggesting the entire medical industry will be revamped. There will always be regional differences but each country will review their infrastructure and make adjustments accordingly. To assume that your country will continue to do business in the same methodology when massive cost reductions are possible is short sided. Does this mean your country will implement nurses instead of doctors, I dont know. I do know that if the government can reduce cost by 50% by not having a doctor examine a patient when they arent even conducting the analysis, they will take a long hard look at it. Why would you have a low skill task assigned to a highly paid person? The goal is to have the lowest paid resource conduct the appropriate task. This is where huge cost savings are generated.
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Originally Posted By Scarrdbutsmartr⏩
Data scientist will work with medical research institutes to define the questions, the patterns that need to be recognized as well as many other factors. Then a data store will billions of data points will be pointed at those questions. AI will look at the data from dozens/hundreds of angles. One of the simple angles will be a "back to front" analysis of the questions. A back to front would look at millions of successful analysis and determine which questions were asked to arrive at the conclusion. That provides a very clear scope of the best questions to ask when diagnosing a medical condition. The process repeats infinitely until the percentage of improvement for the questions is near zero. These types of pattern searches and subsequent data points are something that could not be achieved by hundreds of doctors working for lifetimes. Humans simply dont have the capability to cross check billions/trillions of data points and find patterns for a single data point much less hundreds/thousands...Its beyond human capabilities.

In addition most humans ignore "junk data". We subconsciously tune out data we feel is irrelevant.This is the data that you hear in a patient exam and you immediately think to yourself "thats not important". What we know is that the irrelevant data is actually VERY relevant in terms of trending and patterns. All of that data you ignore, AI OPs is searching, learning and creating patterns. Thats why you dont clean data up before AI analysis. You send everything to the engine and let it analyze. This is why we dont limit data sources facing AI.

Im not suggesting a process or trying to outline exactly how all cost reductions could/will occur. Im not a doctor. Im in technology and I've been involved in case studies. As you claimed yourself we know that insurance companies push back on testing they may feel isnt necessary and can save money. If AI can prevent doctors from ordering poor tests or unneeded tests that will reduce their costs. If AI can suggest test that have an accuracy rating in the high 90s that can prove their analysis, that saves money. This one example is the tip of the iceberg in regards to cost reduction. There are hundreds of cost reduction opportunities that the health insurance companies/governments will drive. The tax payers/health insurance payers will demand it.

There are dozens of variances in the global medical infrastructure. The common trait is that all of them are trying to provide the best care while reducing cost and or maximizing their profit. Thats why Im suggesting the entire medical industry will be revamped. There will always be regional differences but each country will review their infrastructure and make adjustments accordingly. To assume that your country will continue to do business in the same methodology when massive cost reductions are possible is short sided. Does this mean your country will implement nurses instead of doctors, I dont know. I do know that if the government can reduce cost by 50% by not having a doctor examine a patient when they arent even conducting the analysis, they will take a long hard look at it. Why would you have a low skill task assigned to a highly paid person? The goal is to have the lowest paid resource to conduct the appropriate task. This is where huge cost savings are generated.
I'm not saying I'm outright disagreeing with what you're saying, because I do think that eventually, a sufficiently advanced AI will be capable of what you say it will be capable of. However, I don't see it happening during my professional life (i.e. the next 30 years) for a few reasons. Firstly, the public has little faith in AI because it looks like voodoo to the average person. The complaints healthcare professionals hear the most often are "I didn't feel like they listened to what I was saying", and "I felt like a number". This is only going to get worse when you cut out as much human interaction as possible and people feel like they're being scanned by something they don't understand. Patient advocacy groups will hate it. Secondly, and funnily enough everyone keeps ignoring this one: mental healthcare can not be done by an AI, and especially people with schizophrenia will not even want to use it. Thirdly, and I also mentioned this earlier: suppose a bug slips into the software, when an AI is sufficiently complex, how will we know the software is bugged until it's too late and people have died? Doctors make mistakes, but most doctors don't make 20 mistakes in a row. As an example of an AI making a mistake I can point you to Game 4 of Al****o vs. Lee Sedol, where an unexpected move by the player caused the software to basically play worse and worse as the game progressed. If humans don't understand why AI does what it does, humans will also not be able to identify when the AI goes off the rails. You could have a different AI check the first AI but the second one may be just as flawed.

As for cost reduction. I can assure you now that the costs will stay exactly the same or even rise, because the AI will run on systems owned by megacorporations who licence it to hospitals, and they will see opportunities to squeeze hospitals and governments and insurance companies for as much money as they can. As an equivalent, I can point you to pharmaceutical companies right now. Taxpayers will demand it, but look at what taxpayers demand right now and what actually happens (usually the opposite of what's good for the taxpayers, sadly enough).

You also misunderstood what I said about insurance companies. I didn't say they push back on testing they feel isn't necessary and can save money. I'm saying they're actively trying to misdiagnose people with "less severe" conditions so the payout would be smaller.

By the way you mention "why would you have a low skill task assigned to a highly paid person". The whole point is that an examination is not a low skill task, even though you may think it is.
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post 1596741791 01-30-2020, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted By lolXlol⏩
lol in your own country they literally invented an app to diagnose respiratoy illnesses and i'm guessing you didn't even know this lol

your arrogance has blinded you to the realities dude, we are on the precipice of the GREAT REPLACEMENT in medicine

you and your people are donezo dude
There's actually more than one app like that dude. I've used them. They're trash and have 0 clinical utility.
Originally Posted By bartosh⏩
Nah, you're just naive. Other medical posters itt maybe have some understanding. You don't. At all.

Once again. It's easier for anybody understand what requires a doctor to be a doctor than what requires AI to be AI, as you have clearly shown across 15 pages


Edit 15 pages boil down to this:
You: AI can't do what doctors do because what doctors is complex
Reasonable people: AI can handle more and more complex problems and it's entirely reasonable to believe based on AI progression timeline that it will be able to handle doctor-level complex problems sooner rather than later
You: But you don't get it, what doctors do is too complex.
Reasonable people: AI can handle more and more complex problems....

repeat
You're a moron. Can't ignore things like the economics of AI, implementation, market acceptance and even basic entry level logistics of local level implementation; then make blanket statements like that.
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post 1596742311 01-30-2020, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted By lolXlol⏩
yes... becasue human doctors are infallible

idk you're even defending doctors, these guys are cold blooded extortionists that have no problem bankrupting good hardwarking american families to enrich themselves

the quicker they get replaced the better


great point

doctors are such incompetent bums lol


imagine thinking a technology in it's infancy that's going to be refined over and over is the finished product... like srsly

and again the overarching point is that the replacement is starting to happen, we are on the frontiers of ai development in the medical space and you will soon be on the street working the corners for a living
I mean we get like 10% of all healthcare costs. If anyone is "coldblooded" it's you son. Not to mention how much of a fool you are. Hilarious though when you show in the ER in the future at some point, begging for help.
Originally Posted By Brotatoch1p⏩
I live in the USA and seems whenever I go to the doctor even if it's for a scheduled appointment a guy has to pay for you can tell the doctor doesn't really give that much a crap and may as well be an emotionless robot to begin with.. And secondly, it seems like it's a computer that does the work for them most of time anyway, they bring out their little laptop and ask you a couple question and punch a few more things into the computer and badda bing badda boom "What pharmacy do you prefer sir?".
The doctor's office these days doesn't need real skilled people apparently, they just need data processors and medical coders and someone to clean the toilets.
That's called documentation.


Originally Posted By Scarrdbutsmartr⏩
^^^This assumes doctors are asking good questions about the symptoms. We know they arent because of the abysmal analysis percentage. If you give the same symptoms to five different doctors the stats show you will get numerous different questions to the patient, two or three different tests assigned and a couple of different diagnosis.
ROFL wtf? Show me a single source on the nonsense you're saying.
AI resolves all of these ^^^ challenges. I dont mean any offense but AI is better at being a doctor than humans are. I've seen the results and I would trust my life to an AI analysis any day over a human doctor.

In addition the "AI crowd" has clearly stated AI will take over in phases. I dont think anyone is suggesting that docs will go away tomorrow. The doctors themselves will start to engage with AI OPs because its going to reduce your screw ups and potentially significantly lower your malpractice. Your medical group, hospital or your practice will subscribe to a service..You will poke in your data and you will get back an analysis..Do you know why you will do this, because the insurance companies that pay a huge chunk of your salary will require you to do it. They have more faith in AI than they do you and they want to vastly reduce their costs from poor analysis, numerous non required tests and multiple follow ups...Thats why the insurance companies hire internal doctors to argue and dispute analysis tests with doctors.They can reduce their costs based upon what they feel is poor analysis.

Thats not meant to be offensive to you, its just talking about percentages and dollars.....And then the insurance companies will figure out that they dont need a doctor to conduct a simple physical exam and enter data? They will figure out they need a nurse practitioner.....

The writing is on the wall for non centralized medical care and that means the number of doctors in the future will be significantly reduced. Please know that Im not addressing Trauma/ER. Im simply addressing normal general practice and non trauma surgery.

The reality is that almost 100% of medical care is set up to manage reactive care. AI will take us to proactive care...We will have to rethink/reorganize everything.

My position is in the same boat...I will be phased out as well. If you think Im being hateful or taking digs at you, Im not.
What results? And you jump from primary care clinic to ER to trauma surgery lol. You forgot like dozens of specialties. Why? Because you don't know them, and don't have the slightest clue about medicine yet insist that you're the authoritative voice on this.
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post 1596745901 01-30-2020, 08:44 PM
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Cut a lot for easing reading.
Originally Posted By Scarrdbutsmartr⏩
AI wants ALL of the data including what people might think is "bad data".The entire point is that AI looks at the data across verticals and then has the ability to look at multiple data stores, learn patterns that required hundreds/millions of hours to find if humans were involved.....and when it identifies predictability patterns it can automate a response....
Originally Posted By Scarrdbutsmartr⏩
Thats the beauty of AI - The data almost always exist across numerous data stores..You just have to mine it. Want more data, expand the data store.
Originally Posted By Scarrdbutsmartr⏩
You make a very strong point...and AI is absolutely a gateway drug.If we assume the analysis will be AI driven we should expect the prevention to be AI driven. We wait for bad things to happen to us. We wait until we've gone over the waterfall. AI will be preventative...It will monitor you and prevent you from many illnesses. In addition it will confirm you've taken your medicine...How will it confirm you've taken your medicine...Analysis from a smart toilet. How will it confirm your sleep - Your smart bed...etc..etc..etc This is the internet of things and its already here.

People think Im joking about this but this is headed our way...Dont want to comply, Ok...Be prepared to have MUCH higher premiums.
But what was privacy? Yeah, I know data mining is already going on. That last one sounds more like violation with a knife to your throat.

And yet despite all the data that may be scraped and patterns that may be analyzed I fail to see a good outcome of removing human practitioners.

In another post you included Counselor under safe(r) professions under the umbrella term Humanities. I don't see how treating humans and the innate counseling aspect of said treatment falls outside of that umbrella.
Originally Posted By Scarrdbutsmartr⏩
And lets be clear IVR is a technology that will be entirely replaced with the next generation...Who wants to actually call anyone to make a move/add/change - NO ONE..hence your comments above.Chat bots will completely replace IVR or call centers for the next generation.
Hope the bots get better then. My recent interaction with a bot was very frustrating. I needed to cancel my deceased mother's cell phone plan which was set as a recurring charge on one of her credit cards. There seemed to be no path forward and the bot kept asking me to "give it another chance".
Originally Posted By Scarrdbutsmartr⏩
The concern is if you own the AI, you own the data store and you have bias.... you can make it say anything you want...I could theoretically make it say you have a 1% chance of cancer when you actually have a 99% chance of cancer. We all hope this would never happen and that the cost reductions would be significant enough to prevent these types of shenanigans. In a world where population control and climate change is regularly discussed, who is to say the algorithm isnt programmed to diminish the odds of cancer/cancer treatment after 70....Thin the heard.

Thats a huge leap but I understand the concerns.
Originally Posted By lolXlol⏩
when technology replaces you in the near future social norms will change to reflect the new breed of ai based 'doctors' so this talk about 'ethical issues' is irrelevant, the vast majority of people will accept the tradeoff of muh feelings human doctors and superior ai that has better precision in diagnosing and treating illnesess becasue they know that machines aren't subject to flaws in humans such as laziness, incompetence, hero complexes (something surgeonbrah eveidently knows all too well), being pharma lapdogs etc,machines having zero emotions is what makes them better than you guys, they simply act on inputs
Originally Posted By MindDigger⏩
Thirdly, and I also mentioned this earlier: suppose a bug slips into the software, when an AI is sufficiently complex, how will we know the software is bugged until it's too late and people have died?Doctors make mistakes, but most doctors don't make 20 mistakes in a row. As an example of an AI making a mistake I can point you to Game 4 of Al****o vs. Lee Sedol, where an unexpected move by the player caused the software to basically play worse and worse as the game progressed. If humans don't understand why AI does what it does, humans will also not be able to identify when the AI goes off the rails. You could have a different AI check the first AI but the second one may be just as flawed.
This is what I meant by corruption in my earlier comment.

- creator/owner has a "backdoor"
- Garbage In/Garbage Out
- massive scale of any failure/IOW # of patients seeing a doctor vs. # treated by an AI

A "backdoor" could be used for something as banal as monopoly/profit, or cronyism (preferential treatments for the powerful and connected).

OTOH the power to influence medical care for individuals is immense- like Nazi Germany (yeah, I went there) immense.

If you have a child born with an expensive to treat condition will the AI be nudged toward less effective treatments to shorten the child's life and decrease costs?

If you are older and your productive years are behind you will the AI be jiggered to steer you toward palliative care instead of a cure?

Will people with higher incomes or skills in higher demand be deemed more worthy of the cost of lower success hail Mary treatments?

You might not even have to be that sneaky about it. I can totally see arguments for the first two under the guise of "quality of life" and for the last something under the "greater good".
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post 1596749411 01-30-2020, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted By lockdev⏩
OP: Stick to medicine.

You're not a computer or data scientist and have no idea what you're talking about.

How does a doctor make a diagnosis? Through observation, data, and facts, correct?

What do you think an AI does?

Only it is able to compare a patient's data against terabytes, if not petabytes, of data.

AI is already able to diagnose breast cancer better than doctors now:https://www.bbc.com/news/health-50857759

AI is coming for you brah. No job is safe.
Originally Posted By lolXlol⏩
when technology replaces you in the near future social norms will change to reflect the new breed of ai based 'doctors' so this talk about 'ethical issues' is irrelevant, the vast majority of people will accept the tradeoff of muh feelings human doctors and superior ai that has better precision in diagnosing and treating illnesess becasue they know that machines aren't subject to flaws in humans such as laziness, incompetence, hero complexes (something surgeonbrah eveidently knows all too well), being pharma lapdogs etc, machines having zero emotions is what makes them better than you guys, they simply act on inputs


in your example the patient would be required pre operation to choose from a margin of safety they would be comfortable in accepting, in an emergency case there would be regulations in place to determine that threshold, kids like you act like doctors are perfect and have 100% success rates in treating patients lol, newsflash... you don't
Dont confuse the interpretation of a screening image that correlates to what the AI has learned looks like cancer to BE DIAGNOSTIC until that info is then correlated with other testing...

Triple testing is used in these situations to ensure accuracy in diagnosis clinical examination, imaging, pathology - gold standard for breast cancer. Therefore a computer that can more rapidly identify ONE of those three things doesn't suddenly mean AI is already better than doctors...


You know what, **** it. It is this stupid entitled MISC logic that is so frustrating. You have no ****ing clue what you are taking about and spout off like an expert! You posted a ****ing headline from a BBC.com article as well, not even the study itself! If I tried to bring that level of evidence into a discussion with my peers I would be laughed at like a LEPER.

As for you lolXOlol - it doesn't take any Psych guys in here to understand your perspective comes from some deep seeded hatred towards the medical profession.
Whatever your malfunction it is of little consequence to me.

When you are making such a statement like - everyone will be happy to completely change the concept of medical care and the ethics of it to allow themselves to be treated in a manner akin to veterinary medicine (i.e. AI bot all knowing and accurate so people will accept being TOLD what treatment to have and be grateful?)

Glad the best of you will live forever in threads like this on the Misc...
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post 1596750061 01-30-2020, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted By Hardlifter9⏩
He saw a doctor once for a rash that went away on his own. And remembers seeing a doctor as a kid when he had a cold. Makes him an expert on clinical medicine.




If anything this thread is hard proof just how poor our education system is in teaching the average person (aka you) on how to think.

We keep telling you that you have 0 insight into medicine whatsoever, and you keep repeating the same points. If you don't even know what a job entails, at all, you should refrain from commenting on it and instead read and learn.

And what AI can do in the distant future is irrelevant, we're talking about this generation.
LOL at the subtle moving of the goalposts.

From never happening to not in this generation.

If this thread goes one more page he'll be in the fetal position crying for Mommy 😅😅😅😅

At least your skull isn't as thick as I initially thought.
The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.

That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.
Originally Posted By Dave22reborn
At least it will thunderstorm tonight, and we know how they feel about water. :)
^^^Racist police officer who also cries about how racism doesn't exist, also cries reverse racism and typifies the stupidity of the racist right, referring to black people as "they" and regurgitating racist stereotypes.
post 1596750211 01-30-2020, 10:02 PM
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post 1596751261 01-30-2020, 10:21 PM
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The fact that proffered (or w/e) his name is keeps comparing computers to human brains shows just how much he doesn't "get it".

OK so AI won't be as complex as the human brain.

The difference is THE ****ING MACHINE ONLY HAS TO CARRY OUT ONE, OR FEW TASKS.


Does a machine have to worry about survival?

Does it have to worry about it's next meal? Or what time the kids get out of practice?

Butt hurt Durr how can a welding robot outperform a human welder if the computer isn't nearly as complex as the human brain?

Very simple, Timmy, because it only does one task, and completely avoids things humans face like errors, fatigue, etc.

AI doesn't need to be as complex as the human brain because it doesn't need computing power for things that are irrelevant to the task at hand.

Doesn't need power dedicated to telling it's heart to beat, or remembering to pick up a gallon of milk on the way home.
The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.

That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.
Originally Posted By Dave22reborn
At least it will thunderstorm tonight, and we know how they feel about water. :)
^^^Racist police officer who also cries about how racism doesn't exist, also cries reverse racism and typifies the stupidity of the racist right, referring to black people as "they" and regurgitating racist stereotypes.
post 1596751821 01-30-2020, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted By SurgeonBrah⏩
Dont confuse the interpretation of a screening image that correlates to what the AI has learned looks like cancer to BE DIAGNOSTIC until that info is then correlated with other testing...

Triple testing is used in these situations to ensure accuracy in diagnosis clinical examination, imaging, pathology - gold standard for breast cancer. Therefore a computer that can more rapidly identify ONE of those three things doesn't suddenly mean AI is already better than doctors...


You know what, **** it. It is this stupid entitled MISC logic that is so frustrating. You have no ****ing clue what you are taking about and spout off like an expert! You posted a ****ing headline from a BBC.com article as well, not even the study itself! If I tried to bring that level of evidence into a discussion with my peers I would be laughed at like a LEPER.

As for you lolXOlol - it doesn't take any Psych guys in here to understand your perspective comes from some deep seeded hatred towards the medical profession.
Whatever your malfunction it is of little consequence to me.

When you are making such a statement like - everyone will be happy to completely change the concept of medical care and the ethics of it to allow themselves to be treated in a manner akin to veterinary medicine (i.e. AI bot all knowing and accurate so people will accept being TOLD what treatment to have and be grateful?)

Glad the best of you will live forever in threads like this on the Misc...
Their hatred is due to envy and jealousy.
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post 1596751831 01-30-2020, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
The fact that proffered (or w/e) his name is keeps comparing computers to human brains shows just how much he doesn't "get it".

OK so AI won't be as complex as the human brain.

The difference is THE ****ING MACHINE ONLY HAS TO CARRY OUT ONE, OR FEW TASKS.


Does a machine have to worry about survival?

Does it have to worry about it's next meal? Or what time the kids get out of practice?

Butt hurt Durr how can a welding robot outperform a human welder if the computer isn't nearly as complex as the human brain?

Very simple, Timmy, because it only does one task, and completely avoids things humans face like errors, fatigue, etc.

AI doesn't need to be as complex as the human brain because it doesn't need computing power for things that are irrelevant to the task at hand.

Doesn't need power dedicated to telling it's heart to beat, or remembering to pick up a gallon of milk on the way home.
Except welding is not as intricate as caring and dealing with the lives of humans. There is a reason they are paid more after all (and i realize there is more to it than that, but nonetheless risk for doctor is fairly high). Theres ton and tons more ethical dilemmas that stem from the very simple problem that they cant 100% replicate consciousness. Some of the problems ave been introduced in here with no response other than "well, maybe one day well get there"

We covered this numerous, numerous times in the statement that these "computers" can be programmed to do certain things well but fall short of conscious beings.

Again, the incessant changing of the definition of intelligence is a bit much. Its like me creating an experiment with the onset of creating a pizza, and then saying a round thing made of cardboard, fake cheese and whatever the fuk else is even remotely close to pizza. That doesnt fly anywhere.

If the brain is more dynamic in many ways than it represents an ability to handle all the potential happenings in a hospital room better than "artificial intelligence" - which we have established has many forms and definitions, but in the end, in its current form represents 1/100th of the dynamicness of the human brain

And thats BEFORE the ethical/insurance/ funding dilemmas
post 1596752151 01-30-2020, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted By MBisonSon⏩
The fact that proffered (or w/e) his name is keeps comparing computers to human brains shows just how much he doesn't "get it".

OK so AI won't be as complex as the human brain.

The difference is THE ****ING MACHINE ONLY HAS TO CARRY OUT ONE, OR FEW TASKS.


Does a machine have to worry about survival?

Does it have to worry about it's next meal? Or what time the kids get out of practice?

Butt hurt Durr how can a welding robot outperform a human welder if the computer isn't nearly as complex as the human brain?

Very simple, Timmy, because it only does one task, and completely avoids things humans face like errors, fatigue, etc.

AI doesn't need to be as complex as the human brain because it doesn't need computing power for things that are irrelevant to the task at hand.

Doesn't need power dedicated to telling it's heart to beat, or remembering to pick up a gallon of milk on the way home.
Just tell me what 2 simple tasks the bot will have to perform to replace me as a Surgeon...

Shouldn't be a hard question?
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post 1596757731 01-31-2020, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted By propreffered7⏩
i went looking up some consensus in ai, and found a few things: inb4 its not read



notice how even top tier researchers dont want their names next to their "predictions". further, we can prob establish that theere is some bias from certain proponents in wanting to keep achieving funding, so perhaps being overzealous in description of their current function











This idea is further substantiated by MIT technology review:









in reference to claiming ai may not pose a threat:



compounded:


back to original article:



https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...-intelligence/
https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/27/...rtin-ford-book
Interesting read. Will look more into it as this stuff is actually interesting.

If there is disagreement there, then there sure as hell will be in this thread.

Yes, doubt there will be huge questions and challenges to our day to day.


Its just frustrating when the answers are not there just yet, and yet we are all limited to(medical professionals on this occasion) being classed as tasks - machine can do your simple task such as a full on operation or psychiatric consultation.
This reduces us to nothing essentially, and meanwhile there are posters here throwing wild statements around about what will be one of the last jobs to go most likey. I have no doubt AI will take over one day if we are not careful


Edit; also another thing that makes me feel like i wont see this in my lifetime is because of regulations. I mean how long has 5g been out? Its not even widespread yet, its been around for a few years as far as im aware, and here i am on my chitty iphone xs on 4g writing this post
post 1596764821 01-31-2020, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted By MindDigger⏩
I'm not saying I'm outright disagreeing with what you're saying, because I do think that eventually, a sufficiently advanced AI will be capable of what you say it will be capable of. However, I don't see it happening during my professional life (i.e. the next 30 years) for a few reasons. Firstly, the public has little faith in AI because it looks like voodoo to the average person. The complaints healthcare professionals hear the most often are "I didn't feel like they listened to what I was saying", and "I felt like a number". This is only going to get worse when you cut out as much human interaction as possible and people feel like they're being scanned by something they don't understand. Patient advocacy groups will hate it. Secondly, and funnily enough everyone keeps ignoring this one: mental healthcare can not be done by an AI, and especially people with schizophrenia will not even want to use it. Thirdly, and I also mentioned this earlier: suppose a bug slips into the software, when an AI is sufficiently complex, how will we know the software is bugged until it's too late and people have died? Doctors make mistakes, but most doctors don't make 20 mistakes in a row. As an example of an AI making a mistake I can point you to Game 4 of Al****o vs. Lee Sedol, where an unexpected move by the player caused the software to basically play worse and worse as the game progressed. If humans don't understand why AI does what it does, humans will also not be able to identify when the AI goes off the rails. You could have a different AI check the first AI but the second one may be just as flawed.

As for cost reduction. I can assure you now that the costs will stay exactly the same or even rise, because the AI will run on systems owned by megacorporations who licence it to hospitals, and they will see opportunities to squeeze hospitals and governments and insurance companies for as much money as they can. As an equivalent, I can point you to pharmaceutical companies right now. Taxpayers will demand it, but look at what taxpayers demand right now and what actually happens (usually the opposite of what's good for the taxpayers, sadly enough).

You also misunderstood what I said about insurance companies. I didn't say they push back on testing they feel isn't necessary and can save money. I'm saying they're actively trying to misdiagnose people with "less severe" conditions so the payout would be smaller.

By the way you mention "why would you have a low skill task assigned to a highly paid person". The whole point is that an examination is not a low skill task, even though you may think it is.
You know patients and insurance better than I ever will. I know Technology, financials and the massive amount of case studies I've read and the case studies I've been involved with..I will say for 100% certainty that massive cost reductions will be available. To say that massive corps and governments will run them is completely not in alignment with reality. Companies sell products based upon an ROI. Just because a massive company sells a product it doesnt mean that there wont be savings. Thats the exact opposite of what actually happens. If you wont to make the argument that the customers want ever see the savings thats a different topic....In the end I've seen the financial models and I dont believe you have. Will the models come true, who knows...The odds that wont hovers around zero due to the health benefits and cost reductions.


Im not going to continue to discuss the other points with you about office visits exams. You arent aware of the technology that is currently being worked on and subsequently you cant understand how your skills will no longer being needed. It would be like you trying to provide a very deep explanation of the heart or the lungs to me. It would take me months to fully understand what you were trying to tell me. The reality is that AI is coming and the technology around it Internet of things, Quantum computing and robotics revolution will make 90% of what you do in the next few decades obsolete. You cant see it but that doesnt mean it will happen. The guys that drove horse and buggies didnt see it either...The guys that sold carbon paper didnt see it coming - That didnt mean it didnt happen.
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