MISC Crypto Crew (MCC) Vol: XIV: Scaling troubles and NFT bubbles

05-17-2021, 03:34 PM

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#3211

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Originally Posted By entropy91⏩

Why do you keep saying the Lightning network cannot scale? You can easily look up the metrics yourself.

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-ligh...k-active-nodes

[/quote]

(To my knowledge of the tech) it has a limit to the amounts that can be sent on the network. It's for small amounts and struggles with large amounts due to channel fund limitations.

Kim DotCom has built 2 multi million dollar platforms called Mega and Megaupload. He knows the transaction volume that will happen on his new platform that he's creating, because he's built 2 before. He and his devs tried for 6 months to use the LN and they came to the conclusion that it won't be able to handle it. When he tells that to Bitcoin Maxis they act like the man has no clue about building successful apps, it's bizarre. The man is literally an expert and he's saying for 6 months he and the devs tried, and it couldn't handle what is required for his platform... So he turned to Bitcoin Cash because it can do microtransactions and large amount transactions.

His platform requires large and microtransactions, the lightning network is unable to deliver. Lightning Network devs just reply "it's coming", but the man needs to release his platform this year, so he can't wait for 4+ years for them to sort things out.

[QUOTE]The fact all other chains have to make themselves EVM compatible to even have a chance in this space tells you who the winner already is.[/QUOTE]Utility will be the winner.

05-17-2021, 03:36 PM

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#3212

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Originally Posted By Bigbuster1⏩

I guess LOGE is dead? Lol

05-17-2021, 03:42 PM

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#3213

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

We are talking about smart contract capabilities that allow DApps to be built. I'm sure you will agree that something like Uniswap, AAVE, Aavegotchi, Pancakeswap, etc, can't be built on Layer 1, and there is no Layer 2 solution even close to offering that capability for Bitcoin.

The amount of applications and smart contracts in use.

Look at Ethereum's applications and smart contracts, and look at Bitcoin's.

Ethereum can do what Bitcoin can do, but Bitcoin can't do what Ethereum can do. (Wallet to Wallet transactions are faster and cheaper than Bitcoin, even if you chose to pay the 'fast' fee in metamask it's still cheaper.)

ETH is a computation layer. Bitcoin is a settlement layer. They're two completely different platforms. ETH has a slightly higher TPS, but it also has an infinite supply. It was never intended to be used as a currency, but fuel for the network. You can technically use tokens and never touch ETH to power the entire network with economic abstraction.

ETHs value is also confined to it's utility. Stores of value have no ceiling and can levitate as high as the participants ( game theory ) deem possible.

In terms of market pricing mechanisms utility doesn't equate to value. Andre Cronje published his findings here:

********************/fantomfoundation/...h-f6716572e60c

The base token price of Bitcoin and ETH is essentially how much it costs to mine one. PoS on ETH essentially drops this number giving BTC a higher base price at each halving.

The end goal of ETH is to have cheap gas to power the network. The goal of Bitcoin is to provide a secure payment network for participants to retain their value.

05-17-2021, 03:48 PM

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#3214

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Originally Posted By entropy91⏩

ETH is a computation layer. Bitcoin is a settlement layer. They're two completely different platforms. .

ETH is also becoming a settlement platfom. Visa is using ETH.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ninabam...tners-in-usdc/

Stablecoins (which allow international transfers far easier than traditional banking) were born on Ethereum.

ETH has a slightly higher TPS, but it also has an infinite supply

Infinite supply in and of itself is not an issue, if the rate of inflation is small. Like Monero.

The inflation rate of ETH will change with the July hardfork.

ETH is simultaneously a currency, and smart contract platform.

Regardless... Ethereum is not the only platform that can double as a settlement and smart contract platform.

05-17-2021, 03:50 PM

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#3215

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(To my knowledge of the tech) it has a limit to the amounts that can be sent on the network. It's for small amounts and struggles with large amounts due to channel fund limitations.

Kim DotCom has built 2 multi million dollar platforms called Mega and Megaupload. He knows the transaction volume that will happen on his new platform that he's creating, because he's built 2 before. He and his devs tried for 6 months to use the LN and they came to the conclusion that it won't be able to handle it. When he tells that to Bitcoin Maxis they act like the man has no clue about building successful apps, it's bizarre. The man is literally an expert and he's saying for 6 months he and the devs tried, and it couldn't handle what is required for his platform... So he turned to Bitcoin Cash because it can do microtransactions and large amount transactions.

His platform requires large and microtransactions, the lightning network is unable to deliver. Lightning Network devs just reply "it's coming", but the man needs to release his platform this year, so he can't wait for 4+ years for them to sort things out.

Utility will be the winner.[/QUOTE]

Second hand stories from Kim dot com mean nothing. Show me where it cannot scale.

Cardano has zero utility. ETH has been the first mover in NFT, DEX and Smart contracts with all of the resources Devs / businesses need to build on it. Not to mention proven resilience. No other chain comes close. Wan is literally a fork of ETH.

Companies make their chain EVM compatible in hope companies will switch their projects over to their chain. They provide zero incentive or value innovation for individuals or businesses to switch over. The only issues I've seen are gas fees which will be solved in the upcoming upgrade AND because people are actually using the platform. Any ETH competitor that starts to experience heavy usage has ultimately gone down or failed. FTM and AVAX are 2 of the most recent ones.

05-17-2021, 03:52 PM

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#3216

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B...bu...but look how cheap transactions are on Cardano compared to Ethereum. Checkmate!!!!1

05-17-2021, 03:56 PM

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#3217

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Originally Posted By entropy91⏩

Second hand stories from Kim dot com mean nothing.

To you maybe, but he's an expert on this matter.

Show me where it cannot scale.

I just explained. If you're asking for a research paper, I don't have one.

Cardano has zero utility.

It's coming.

ETH has been the first mover in NFT, DEX and Smart contracts with all of the resources Devs / businesses need to build on it. Not to mention proven resilience. No other chain comes close.

What's your point? Nothing other than ETH can succeed?

The crypto industry is still in it's infancy.

Wan is literally a fork of ETH.

So?

Companies make their chain EVM compatible in hope companies will switch their projects over to their chain. They provide zero incentive or value innovation for individuals or businesses to switch over.

No, the companies may prefer the security, governance and development team on the other chains. Polkdot and Cardano are headed by people who helped build ETH... Those are strong credentials.

Cardano, Polkadot, etc, will have their own native ecosystem alongside the smart contracts brought over from Ethereum, so it simply just makes it easier. Also, ETH fees give them an incentive to go over to Cardano and Polkadot.

The only issues I've seen are gas fees which will be solved in the upcoming upgrade

That's not true, it will basically just put an average on fees.

What will help is all DApps built on ETH switch to Optimism, Immutable X and MATIC, so that user aren't getting raped by the fees.

AND because people are actually using the platform. Any ETH competitor that starts to experience heavy usage has ultimately gone down or failed. FTM and AVAX are 2 of the most recent ones.

We'll see if Cardano and Polkadot have the same problems.

05-17-2021, 03:59 PM

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#3218

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

ETH is also becoming a settlement platfom. Visa is using ETH.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ninabam...tners-in-usdc/

Stablecoins (which allow international transfers far easier than traditional banking) were born on Ethereum.

Infinite supply in and of itself is not an issue, if the rate of inflation is small.

The inflation rate of ETH will change with the July hardfork.

ETH is simultaneously a currency, and smart contract platform.

Regardless... Ethereum is not the only platform that can double as a settlement and smart contract platform.

Stablecoins are tied to FIAT currencies ( at least the ones used for settlement regarding Visa). Stablecoins also weren't born on Ethereum. The bitshare blockchain had the first stablecoin. Congratulations this changes absolutely nothing regarding the core value proposition of Bitcoin.

Infinite supply and inflation were one of the core reasons why Bitcoin was invented. Saying inflation isn't an issue shows how little you truly understand in this space. If inflation is coded in at even a small percentage that is an infinite decrease in value over time.

05-17-2021, 04:00 PM

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#3219

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Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩

B...bu...but look how cheap transactions are on Cardano compared to Ethereum. Checkmate!!!!1

On the flip side. Binance Smart Chain eclipses Eth.

Pancake Swapalonehas more transaction volume than the entire Ethereum network.

That shows that the people are willing to use alternatives to ETH, and that people overestimate the edge that Ethereum has as a first mover.

05-17-2021, 04:04 PM

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#3220

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Originally Posted By entropy91⏩

It looks like it broke out and was quickly cucked again

Gonna quote you in a few weeks, son.

05-17-2021, 04:05 PM

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#3221

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Originally Posted By entropy91⏩

Stablecoins are tied to FIAT currencies ( at least the ones used for settlement regarding Visa).

I never claimed otherwise.

Stablecoins also weren't born on Ethereum. The bitshare blockchain had the first stablecoin.

True. I was wrong.

Infinite supply and inflation were one of the core reasons why Bitcoin was invented. Saying inflation isn't an issue shows how little you truly understand in this space.

Bitcoin is not the the gospel of how things 'should' be. Different blockchains have different approaches, you may not agree with them, but they don't have to conform to Bitcoin. It's not a mandate.

Also, Bitcoin was supposed to be peer to peer electronic cash as per the white paper. Not a store of value, with astronomically high transactions fees that destroy it's abilty to be used as electronic cash. Things change however, and many pro Bitcoin people try to defend it's unusablity as cash as a 'stage'.

If inflation is coded in at even a small percentage that is an infinite decrease in value over time.

If the rate of inflation is small then it's not a significant different in terms of day to day use.

05-17-2021, 04:08 PM

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#3222

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

On the flip side. Binance Smart Chain eclipses Eth.

Pancake Swapalonehas more transaction volume than the entire Ethereum network.

That shows that the people are willing to use alternatives to ETH, and that people overestimate the edge that Ethereum has as a first mover.

Isn’t BSC centralized? So it’s really about whether people care about centralization or not.

I think an agnostic platform like ETH will ultimately overshadow centralized private solutions, but none of this makes coexistence impossible.

05-17-2021, 04:10 PM

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#3223

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

On the flip side. Binance Smart Chain eclipses Eth.

Pancake Swapalonehas more transaction volume than the entire Ethereum network.

That shows that the people are willing to use alternatives to ETH, and that people overestimate the edge that Ethereum has as a first mover.

> trusting any volume numbers from binance

05-17-2021, 04:17 PM

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#3224

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Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩

Isn’t BSC centralized? So it’s really about whether people care about centralization or not.

Also if they have the money to use it. You may be a rich dude, but a lot of Gen Z and people in developing nations (who I've chatted to online, and have a genuine interest in crypto) simply can't afford the fees. So they go to BSC.

Those fees are horrendous, simply unbelievable. MATIC may pull back Zoomers and developing nations peeps.

I think most people don't care. Being honest... I haven't touched the ETH network in about 2 months due to getting raped on fees on the regular. I use BSC, and I've been looking at other smart contract platforms like Secret, Wanchain and Solana. I'm probably going to become a Solana head for a while, tbh.

I think an agnostic platform like ETH will ultimately overshadow centralized private solutions.

I agree... Once they sort out the fees. Optmism (possibly) comes out in July - IMO they phucked up, and should have just embraced MATIC - and Kusama will likely be up and running around the same time. Polkadot probably sometimes in Q4.

Solana, Secret and Wanchain are already building their ecosystems.

I don't believe ETH is going anywhere, but I also don't believe it's spot as the king of smart contract platforms is safe in a 5 to 10 year span (I don't believe it's going to be dethroned this bullrun, I'm not delusional). The Optimistic roll up delay blew the door open for BSC (it already was doing well), and since then it's being destroying ETH on transaction volume.

05-17-2021, 04:18 PM

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#3225

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Originally Posted By brbacquiring⏩

> trusting any volume numbers from binance

The volume stats come from BSC scan which is a clone of Etherescan. So if you distrust BSCscan, you distrust ETHscan.

https://www.coindesk.com/pancakeswap...m-transactions

05-17-2021, 04:19 PM

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#3226

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

To you maybe, but he's an expert on this matter.

Cool. I'm an expert too and I say it scales.

I just explained. If you're asking for a research paper, I don't have one.

Sweet so you have absolutely nothing to back up your argument.

It's coming.

skeletonwaiting.jpg

What's your point? Nothing other than ETH can succeed?

Nothing that trys to do what ETH is doing will succeed

The crypto industry is still in it's infancy.

So?

Hey guys I forked this project and changed one feature on the protocol! I'm worth billions now!

No, the companies may prefer the security, governance and development team on the other chains. Polkdot and Cardano are headed by people who helped build ETH... Those are strong credentials.

we're choosing blockchains based on credentials now?

Cardano, Polkadot, etc, will have their own native ecosystem alongside the smart contracts brought over from Ethereum, so it simply just makes it easier. Also, ETH fees give them an incentive to go over to Cardano and Polkadot.

yet all of the innovation takes place on ETH chain. NFTs, Dexs copy pasting using the same AMM algo. Lame.

That's not true, it will basically just put an average on fees.

What will help is all DApps built on ETH switch to Optimism, Immutable X and MATIC, so that user aren't getting raped by the fees.

Those L2s don't scale. Kim dot net tried to use them and says they don't work

We'll see if Cardano and Polkadot have the same problems.

Hard to have problems when you're a vaporware ghost chain

05-17-2021, 04:29 PM

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#3227

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Originally Posted By entropy91⏩

Hard to have problems when you're a vaporware ghost chain

I guess our debate has done, all you're now doing is writing sarcastic responses.

The mulitchain maximalist is out. ;-)

05-17-2021, 04:31 PM

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#3228

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

I never claimed otherwise.

A settlement layer for assets backed by fiat is completely different than a market determining which decentralized settlement layer is the best.

True. I was wrong.

Bitcoin is not the the gospel of how things 'should' be. Different blockchains have different approaches, you may not agree with them, but they don't have to conform to Bitcoin. It's not a mandate.

seems like the market agrees that Bitcoin is the gospel of how things should be when it comes to money. Has drastically outperformed every currency since its inception.

Brutal.

Also, Bitcoin was supposed to be peer to peer electronic cash as per the white paper. Not a store of value, with astronomically high transactions fees that destroy it's abilty to be used as electronic cash. Things change however, and many pro Bitcoin people try to defend it's unusablity as cash as a 'stage'.

People use it as cash. P2P transactions up across the board. You're blatantly wrong again.

If the rate of inflation is small then it's not a significant different in terms of day to day use.

Having an infinite supply coupled with inflation is the worst thing you can do with money.

05-17-2021, 04:34 PM

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#3229

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

I guess our debate has done, all you're now doing is writing sarcastic responses.

The mulitchain maximalist is out. ;-)

How is that a sarcastic response? It's an objective truth.

05-17-2021, 04:42 PM

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#3230

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

On the flip side. Binance Smart Chain eclipses Eth.

Pancake Swapalonehas more transaction volume than the entire Ethereum network.

That shows that the people are willing to use alternatives to ETH, and that people overestimate the edge that Ethereum has as a first mover.

Yes they captured the Chitcoin gamblers market. Where innovative visionary projects like safemoon and loge will shape the future of finance.

Of course tx volume would be more on a centralized network. That's like saying the tx volume on visa is bigger than ETH so visa has the competitive edge!

How many businesses did BSC capture compared to ETH since its inception? How many long term projects moved to BSC?

05-17-2021, 04:49 PM

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#3231

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Originally Posted By entropy91⏩

Yes they captured the Chitcoin gamblers market. Where innovative visionary projects like safemoon and loge will shape the future of finance.

Of course tx volume would be more on a centralized network. That's like saying the tx volume on visa is bigger than ETH so visa has the competitive edge!

How many businesses did BSC capture compared to ETH since its inception? How many long term projects moved to BSC?

The point was it shows there is no user loyalty, I'll repeat from my post...

That shows that the people are willing to use alternatives to ETH, and that people overestimate the edge that Ethereum has as a first mover.

Most people are not loyal to tech/maximalists, they just use whatever is best for them. Which shows that if the ETH ecosystem doesn't fix it's fees before Cardano and Polkadot's ecosystems flourish then it's dominance is in serious question in 5 to 10 years.

Cardano, Pokadot and Kusama will have the ability for solidity smart contracts to be copy and pasted onto their networks, so DApps may simply choose to do that on Cardano and Polkadot to cut fees for users.

Maximalism is the mentality of people who are hardcore in the crypto space, not normies and people who just want to make money. That's the point.

05-17-2021, 05:00 PM

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#3232

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

Maximalism is the mentality of people who are hardcore in the crypto space, not normies and people who just want to make money. That's the point.

This is why decentralization itself doesn't sell. It's perhaps unfortunate, but people care more about $ than anything else.

Decentralized networks must also win the utility vs. cost war, the philosophical position of decentralized control (which I personally am an advocate of) just won't resonate enough with most people to care.

So ye, that does concern me. Often there's costs to higher decentralization, for a benefit that individuals may not see or care about.

05-17-2021, 05:07 PM

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#3233

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A new generation of bag holders are about to be born.

Love to see it.

05-17-2021, 05:26 PM

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#3234

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Originally Posted By Luc1fer⏩

This is why decentralization itself doesn't sell. It's perhaps unfortunate, but people care more about $ than anything else.

Decentralized networks must also win the utility vs. cost war, the philosophical position of decentralized control (which I personally am an advocate of) just won't resonate enough with most people to care.

I agree completely.

I too support decentralization, but... To be blunt... I need the bag. My use of BSC is really just temporary until a decentralized alternative comes along with equivalent fees, and a decent ecosystem.

The past week the amount of transactions I did on BSC would have cost me about 3K on ETH. That's the cost of 3 nice moon bags that can secure my financial future.

So ye, that does concern me. Often there's costs to higher decentralization, for a benefit that individuals may not see or care about.

I agree, people have to be ideologues generally to stick to them by principle. Especially when the fees are that high like on ETH.

The fees for using DApps on Ethereum sometimes are literally more than some people make in a month in some parts of SEA and Africa. As much as we talk about decentralization, they want to get financial security more than they will ever care about decentralization.

05-17-2021, 05:56 PM

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#3235

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Originally Posted By BetaAsPhuck⏩

The point was it shows there is no user loyalty, I'll repeat from my post...

That shows that the people are willing to use alternatives to ETH, and that people overestimate the edge that Ethereum has as a first mover.

Most people are not loyal to tech/maximalists, they just use whatever is best for them. Which shows that if the ETH ecosystem doesn't fix it's fees before Cardano and Polkadot's ecosystems flourish then it's dominance is in serious question in 5 to 10 years.

Cardano, Pokadot and Kusama will have the ability for solidity smart contracts to be copy and pasted onto their networks, so DApps may simply choose to do that on Cardano and Polkadot to cut fees for users.

Maximalism is the mentality of people who are hardcore in the crypto space, not normies and people who just want to make money. That's the point.

No it doesn't. How does tx volume quantify how many users shifted from ETH to BSC? You're making complete guesses based on one KPI that isn't even relevant to your core argument.

05-17-2021, 05:57 PM

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#3236

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Originally Posted By entropy91⏩

Having an infinite supply coupled with inflation is the worst thing you can do with money.

with Money yes, and that's why Bitcoin is always worth holding. I think his argument is that the other stuff CAN be money if it needs to be, but it's got a ton of other features. Bitcoin will likely separate itself has the hardest store of value in crypto, there's very little chance of that changing.

05-17-2021, 05:58 PM

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#3237

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Great podcast by Whitney Webb on a crypto show talking about Elon and how he's just another billionaire scammer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ff0VQB1kE&t=3773s

05-17-2021, 05:59 PM

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#3238

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how are you bros holding up?
I'm minimally invested so not too worried only wondering if I should pull the trigger on more crypto.
Sitting on quite a bit of cash but crypto market is so crazy now

05-17-2021, 06:09 PM

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#3239

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Originally Posted By ghostfacedup⏩

with Money yes, and that's why Bitcoin is always worth holding. I think his argument is that the other stuff CAN be money if it needs to be, but it's got a ton of other features. Bitcoin will likely separate itself has the hardest store of value in crypto, there's very little chance of that changing.

An exchange of value =/= an exchange of fuel for a service. Speculation can occur on utility tokens to take them to higher valuations, but it will always return to the mean of what the actual users using that service / utility are willing to pay.

05-17-2021, 06:33 PM

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#3240

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Originally Posted By Muscle2021⏩

how are you bros holding up?
I'm minimally invested so not too worried only wondering if I should pull the trigger on more crypto.
Sitting on quite a bit of cash but crypto market is so crazy now

Up 40K in a few weeks, but down 20K from peak profits. Can't complain, just want the sell off to be over. I'm too scared to sell now and miss another rally.

Also how is it possible ETH is 1 to 1 trading with BTC. I've had both live charts open and they have been moving 100% in synch for the last several days.

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Thread: MISC Crypto Crew (MCC) Vol: XIV: Scaling troubles and NFT bubbles