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Originally Posted By guest89⏩

Biggest issue with the constant whining over minimum wage is its something that should only technically affect people from 16-25 years old.What kind of person works dead end jobs for their entire life then whines the government needs to give them a raise?


Had this epiphany when I was 18 working with some guys in their 40s. (Manual labor job). By the time I was 20 I was getting paid more then dudes that had been in that industry for 20+ years. Mainly because of work ethic + innovative ideas that upped productivity. Finally got tired of being surrounded by losers and put myself through college.


It was kind of weird being put supervising dudes over 2x my age that had more experience in the industry then I'd been alive.

Average minimum wage-cel needs to figure out how to scale a career and their skillset.

But here is the thing- the minimum sets the floor and the floor hasn't been adjusted to keep up with inflation.

I wish I had an updated chart for this, but a heck of a lot more than just high school and college students are earning less than $15 an hour.



^^^
Roughly one third of individual workers earning less than the equivalent of $15 an hour full time. Sure, there must be students and retirees and part-time workers in that cohort, but just lol at the idea that raising the wage to $15 would only mean increasing pay for the greenest least productive workers.

Originally Posted By Hammersia⏩

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Originally Posted By Anachron⏩

Just LOL at this statement.

just lol at using safety razors.

When will nongilletecels learn about basic economic$?

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One party system; Most Republicans are Democrats, but no Democrats are Republicans.
Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
"To Call something fair or unfair is a subjective value judgment and not liable to any verification" Ludwig Von Mises

Originally Posted By Kraken⏩

lol @ a lot to unpack. That was just copying/pasting policies without any relevant facts.

There are two things to separate here;

The first is that you argued for child labor laws, but that wasn't even a part of the debate. No one here is arguing against child labor laws. We'll call that one a straw man.

Second is a bunch of statements on wages that have no impact on the economic process.

You didn't seem to have read what I posted, so let me make a final attempt, this time, I'll make it directly against your claims. If you were to ask someone if they would prefer to work for low wages or have no job at all, what would they answer?

On average, blacks have lower skill rates than whites. After the Fair Labor act, when minimum wages went up, blacks were priced out of the market. From the mid 1800s up until the Fair Trade Act, blacks and whites has almost the same exact job participation rate. After the fair trade act, job participation among blacks fell dramatically, especially young blacks. They lost their jobs and were unable to find any because their skills didn't qualify them for the new wages. They were replaced by more educated and skilled workers, which ended up being mostly white, and the total number of jobs also went down. This also means, they could no longer gain skills and this had a compounding affect on future generations too.

Wage laws decrease options as well, for both employers and the worker. Because they both have less options, this means less competition for both labor positions and for companies competing against each other. This is the consequence of price fixing.

This same thing happened with every single minimum wage increase in our history too. Each time it hurt blacks more than any other race. So when people say "capitalism is racist", you can reply "No liberal/progressive policies are".

Well to be fair I spent time replying to your first point and then wandered off to something else and didn't get into the next section.

As I understood your first point:

- government shouldn't intervene in the free market because the market is superior

What is the market superior at? It seems to me the only thing the market is superior at is maximizing short term profits without regard to the overall health and well being of a community.

I wasn't aiming at child labor so much as the labor group with the least power- probably minorities and illegal immigrants now.

So if we wanted to update from pre-FLSA taking examples from the article and using an inflation calculator:

Illegal Immigrants = $78.46 a week, often working more than 40 hours

Factory Seamstress = $78.46 to $117.70 per week

New York State Minimum Wage = $196.16 per week

Washington State Minimum Wage = $284.44 for a 48 hour work week

Then under the FLSA the minimum was set at .25 an hour, or $10 for a 40 hour week, so the lowest paid workers vs. the executives:

Federal Minimum Wage = $196.16 per 40 hour week

Executives making "$1,000 a day" = 5 day work week

^^^
CEO $10K a Day Mad Jelly!!!



So, yes the unrestricted market with no minimum wage was very good at creating massive profits for owners while grinding everyone else into the dirt.

Children earning the equivalent of less than $80 per week often working over 40 hours and executive raking in near $5M a year.

You can find arguments for both sides re:increasing minimum wages + minorities.

https://www.google.com/search?q=are+...hrome&ie=UTF-8

I would argue that social benefits structured in such a way as to penalize marriage have hurt minorities [and the poor in general] a lot more than some potential reduction in job opportunities due to a higher wage floor.

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Originally Posted By katya422⏩

Well to be fair I spent time replying to your first point and then wandered off to something else and didn't get into the next section.

As I understood your first point:

- government shouldn't intervene in the free market because the market is superior

What is the market superior at? It seems to me the only thing the market is superior at is maximizing short term profitswithout regard to the overall health and well being of a community.

I wasn't aiming at child labor so much as the labor group with the least power- probably minorities and illegal immigrants now.

So if we wanted to update from pre-FLSA taking examples from the article and using an inflation calculator:



Then under the FLSA the minimum was set at .25 an hour, or $10 for a 40 hour week, so the lowest paid workers vs. the executives:



^^^
CEO $10K a Day Mad Jelly!!!



So, yes the unrestricted market with no minimum wage was very good at creating massive profits for owners while grinding everyone else into the dirt.

Children earning the equivalent of less than $80 per week often working over 40 hours and executive raking in near $5M a year.

You can find arguments for both sides re:increasing minimum wages + minorities.

https://www.google.com/search?q=are+...hrome&ie=UTF-8

I would argue that social benefits structured in such a way as to penalize marriage have hurt minorities [and the poor in general] a lot more than some potential reduction in job opportunities due to a higher wage floor.

Actually, it’s quite the contrary. I just proved that the outcomes of these policies are worse than when you let the market dictate itself. This is what you aren’t getting. If you really cared about the health and well-being of the community, you wouldn’t be supporting policies that take jobs away from people, create additional suffering because they’re jobless, and create greater disparity between blacks and whites.

As for CEOs, then become a CEO. It’s one position within atheists company, not hundreds or thousands like the labor positions. The value of that one position is great because of the knowledge, experience, and the education required for it. None of the labor has any of those things, therefore their individual value is not as great. The job of the CEO is to make the company lots of money, and when he is successful, he gets paid a lot of money. If he’s not, they can him.

None of your arguments take any economic processes into account, nor the bad outcomes of those solutions you are supporting. Do you want people to lose their jobs? Do you want there to be greater suffering? Do you want there to be greater disparity between blacks and whites? What are you, racist? Are you heartless?

Your arguments or just emotional and ideological complaints Without any regard to how the market works

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Originally Posted By r32gojirra⏩

True the answer lies with the unions

This generation is literally too soft to understand what a picket line is though

Also in Australia you need to account for the fact that your hourly wage is additional to high quality “free” (taxpayer funded) healthcare and a range of other first-world benefits

So hilariously the actual minimum wage is much higher than the employee funded hourly dollar amount when comparing to americucks

It does seem that overall Oz has more equable economic conditions.

If your unions are strong it seems like they should work together to knock out the ridiculous COVID restrictions.

Originally Posted By Kraken⏩

No. Unions are not the answer either.Unions are monopolies that use coercion to price fix as well.They use dirty tactics that hurt businesses as a result of those tactics. In fact, for many years unions wouldn't allow blacks in because they werent skilled enough and therefore not worthy of the wages they were demanding. As per my argument above, Unions are just another mechanism that decreases competition and hurts the market for both the labor and the business. It's a third party with its own self interests that should not be involved in fiduciary agreements. A business and worker agree on a wage, and if the worker doesn't like that wage, they have lots of other options. Price fixing DECREASES THOSE OPTIONS. This kills competition for both the unions and the workers.

Most people are not aware of this, but labor unions today actually DECREASE pay of the most competent workers and INCREASES the pay of the least competent. They make merit based promotion and process obsolete.

What do corporations, governments, and unions all have in common?

People.

Has there been an incorruptible power structure made up of humans in the history of mankind?

What appears to be occurring is the mash up of corporate and government power. Previously we saw something like it when government and church power were intermingled.

And we hated it. Or at least some of us.

In fact I believe that the seeds of the United States were people who wanted freedom from the duopoly of state and church power.

Promoting the idea that "Unions Are Bad" is essentially telling labor that they should just lie down and take it because it would be unfair if labor fought back against corporations and government using the same weapons that corporations and government use.



And yet there are a few institutional firms that have majority ownership of major competitors in multiple market segments.

4 Largest Shareholders For Coca Cola



Largest Shareholders For PepsiCo



The United States Federal Government was designed to be a balance of powers. It seems to be deeply corrupted at this time, but that doesn't mean that the framers of the Constitution did it wrong.

I don't believe that humans are capable of creating and maintaining a pure power structure; not even one attempted on the framework of a free market.

There are long term objectives that a free market based on the pursuit of short term profits will exclude and ignore.

We need a little socialism in our capitalism and a balance of power between labor, capital, and government.

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Originally Posted By katya422⏩

But it doesn't seem to be helping much right now, yeah? All the prices just keep going up anyway.

Here is a fun thought-

Taxpayer money spent on social safety net programs has been artificially holding down wages by subsidizing low wage employment. The ugliest examples are of mega corporations that pay their workers peanuts.



https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...price-hike-125

As a taxpayer you are subsidizing multi-million dollar corporations and paying to keep your own wages stagnant.

I have been saying this for years on the misc, sadly the majority are too simple minded to realise how much of the money they resent paying in tax essentially goes straight to Bezos and the likes

2023 bertie awards 2024 nominations

https://forum.obnoxiousbrutes.com/showthread.php?t=184693083

There is no they…

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"To Call something fair or unfair is a subjective value judgment and not liable to any verification" Ludwig Von Mises

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Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
"To Call something fair or unfair is a subjective value judgment and not liable to any verification" Ludwig Von Mises

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One party system; Most Republicans are Democrats, but no Democrats are Republicans.
Hayek and Mises were right; they're all socialists.
"To Call something fair or unfair is a subjective value judgment and not liable to any verification" Ludwig Von Mises