The doctors said he was dead. He started breathing and regained consciousness.
theory 1: He wasn't dead, and the doctors were wrong.
theory 2: He was dead, had entirely ceased to live, went to heaven etc. But then was alive again, due to ... magic?

Is theory 1 so unbelieveable? Less likely than theory 2? Do you have such faith in doctors that you can't believe that they can make mistakes? I very much doubt it; in fact I imagine you probably think doctors are all full of shyt, when it suits you.
Your theory of returning from death is based on the premise that doctors are never wrong, and never call a death when the patient is in fact not dead. Agree or not?

edit:
theory 3: The guy just made up the story for the purpose of peddling it on youtube etc.
I guess we'll never know for sure.

For theory 2 it wasn’t magic…it’s due to a guy being willing to risk his job by unzipping the body bag and administering an electric shock to the deceased guy’s heart in an attempt to get it to beat again.



But we get it, you absolutely HATE the idea that God can exist and can’t resist your urge to mock people who accept it as a possibility.

We cant have adult conversation if you won't watch the video because your first line is incorrect, and you would know this...... if you listened to his story.

I think dualism is just so untenable because we could not only count the living defenders on one hand with literally fingers removed, but also because the position simply hasn't dealt with the rapid advances of the 4E and embodied cognition paradigm over the last 35 years. In light of that:

1. The best theory of mind which is both economical and makes evolutionary sense of the existence of cognition is the life-mind continuity thesis. Life and mind are continuous phenomena, mind is a scaled up version of the processes constitutive of life. This is kind of like saying the mind and the body are the same phenomenon but not in a reductive way; body and mind are just a system which self-organizes and behaves in a way to perpetuate its own existence. Plus, there is a genuine causal role for consciousness which necessitates its integration with the body.

So the newer paradigm doesn't see the world in terms of physical stuff and mental stuff, but rather embraces the systems perspective. The world is made of systems and the difference between the physical and mental is that mental systems behave in a particular way.

2. This also entails a move beyond a substantial view of mind which inheres in the head or brain etc. Dualism and reductive approaches and the old school AI/computationalist views run on that same conceptual fuel. But mind is more like a transactional phenomenon which is relational and doesn't really inhere in anything. John Dewey describes mind as more like a 'behavioural field' which emerges from a joint brain-body-world system and doesn't exist without transaction and interaction.

So dualismandreductionism are kind of incoherent in this light. It's like saying if you destroyed Wall St, the economy leaves the physical structure of Wall St. That doesn't make sense, it neither leaves Wall St nor does it reduce to or die with Wall St because an economy is an emergent transactional phenomenon which spans a larger system and has no explicit boundaries. But it could be affected by the destruction of Wall St.

3. I think the phenomenologists have shown that many sense perceptions and experiences necessitate a proprioceptive and kinaesthetic sense of being embodied. As in, the possibility of sensing depends on being a body through space and time.

For points 1 and 2 I think we‘re getting bogged down in semantics(which is understandable when discussing concepts that are so hard to put into words) and the point of exactly where to draw the line with regards to where the mind starts/ends.


For your 3rd point, that doesn’t address the phenomenon of people dying, leaving their body, and sensing events that their physical body had no way of sensing. There are tons of reports from people who’ve had NDEs as well as nurses or other hospital workers who testify that the NDEer had access to information that should not be possible if operating from a place of consciousness inside their body.

It's not so much semantics as it is making a vital conceptual distinction. Dualism and physicalism both presume a side of Cartesianism: Dualism believes two separate substances, physicalism is the reductive side of Cartesianism which presumes the mind is the material residue.

My point is that neither is correct and understanding mind requires distinguishing between process and structure. Common sense ideas about consciousness and mind assume a substantial view of mind, like assuming it has a substantial existence with some physical locus.


The views I sketched see that as wrong and conflating structure and process. Mind needs certain structures but it isn't those structures; it is a verb and not a noun which is transactional and exists in relational transactions between certain types of systems. So it is confused to divide the world into physical stuff and mental stuff because 'stuff' isn't the right word.

Just like the economy analogy shows an economy is a transactional phenomenon with organic, cultural, social and historical dimensions with no explicit boundary, so too does the mind have organic, cultural, social and historical dimensions with no explicit boundary. To speak of mind leaving behind the body presumes a substantialist notion which I'm rejecting.

But I'm not at all degrading the veracity of NDEs. I've looked at the phenomenology of NDEs and mystical experiences during my thesis work and in fact I think the most elementary aspect of them is their non-dual nature; the typical Ego and individuated mind is less and less pronounced and one's experience feels totally unified with some sort of ultimate reality.

The phenomenological perspective I've mentioned is thoroughly non-dual and that's the correct perspective to situate NDEs IMO. You can look up Husserl's Noema or Merleau-Ponty's ideas of flesh/chiasm etc. for further elaboration.

So there's not semantics here, or if there is, it's serving a vital conceptual distinction.

I went to another world, had a different family, different job, everything was love. When paramedics brought me back, I was traumatized about losing that world.

Had a few therapy sessions about it.

Friend of mine had a massive heart attack last week, died and was brought back twice.

He said fade to black, then waking up to doctors and nursing standing over him. I asked him for you ****g0ts.

Like I've always said, when the electricity goes out in your brain and heart= the end.

No family members or jeebus waiting.. no white light, or angels or anything else.

Fauci, Biden, Nancy, none of them are vaxed they just lie about it to get people to take it.

So your friend knows more than the millions of people who say otherwise from personal experience??

So yea.. I guess he didn't hallucinate like millions of others have.

Car accident where the street sign came through my windshield like a battle axe and missed my face by about 6". It was one of those 4' square "sharp corner" signs. I was going 60mph at the time and hit gravel and slid off the road.

The weird part when you watch these stories is that they all describe a similar place or situation.
They don't have meetings and coordinate then decide what they will say in their videos.
My grandfather told me his story and it was very similar to the others so i believed him

These always make me think. Also the ones with children who remember their past life.

You’re still dead brah

Turn around

Cliffs - good breakdown of Plato’s story of an NDE(or at least the ancient story retold by Plato).

Glad to see this thread return, I enjoyed the discussion and it'll be good to have it without Numberguy coming in and calling everything he disagrees with "babble".

are you waiting for the actual death so you can taste the flesh of a fellow human?

or was that a lie?

Three of my friends and I visited Orlando’s bar district a couple decades ago. A night of partying and we were returning home on I-4 Highway a little after 3 AM on a Wednesday. I was in the back seat on the passenger’s side. Manny was in the seat to my left behind the driver, and Alex was in the front passenger’s seat. The three of us were all sleeping. Harry was driving my Lexus.

I woke up and glanced around. We seemed to be going pretty fast. Alex was snoring in the front seat and Manny was sound asleep to my left. Harry was wide awake staring forward with intensity, both hands tightly gripping the steering wheel. I looked at the speedometer. It said 157 miles per hour.

“Harry, you’re going a little fast, aren’t you?” I asked.

“We’re going 2.6 miles every minute,” he said with fervor as he turned his head toward me.

The next thing I remember, I was in the back of an ambulance. I must have been pretty banged up as the paramedic looked down on me with dread and said, “You need God, man.”

I went in and out of consciousness for a while and then came back to attention and was standing on my feet in a hospital room wearing a patient gown. A short Asian doctor who couldn’t have been much more than five feet tall entered the room. I asked him what happened? He ignored me. Very rude, I thought.

Then I turned to my left and saw he was headed to a patient. There was a black nurse standing by the patient’s bed with her back to me. She was about five foot three with a nice, fat, round ass and red highlights in her hair. Very pretty I thought. She turned to me and I saw her name tag said “Tyra”.

I tried repeatedly to get their attention, but no one was reacting to me. They were too busy with the patient they were working on.

“This man was brought in with no vitals eleven minutes ago,” Tyra told the doctor. “There’s been no response to the shock of the defibrillator.”

“We’ve lost him,” the doctor said.

I walked closer to see who they were operating on. The patient’s body had several large patches on his chest with wires connected to a machine. I looked over the head of the short doctor to see the patient’s face. It was me.

Wait, how can this be? I’m standing here, how can I be over there? Why are they acting like I’m invisible? I must be dreaming, I thought.

That’s when I heard a voice from the hallway say, “Paul, come this way.”

“Who are you?” I asked.

“Just follow me,” the voice said.

“Where are we going?”

“Follow me–you’ll see.”

We walked all the way to the end of the hallway. The voice was just far enough ahead of me that I couldn’t see this person, but he kept egging me on. “Just through this door,” he said.

I walked through the door. When the door shut behind me, it was dark, the kind of dark when you’re in a cave tour and the guide shuts out all the lights. I couldn’t even see my hand if I held it right in front of my face. Where was I? I had no idea. But I still heard the voice.

“Come on, we’re not there yet,” he said.

It seemed like we were walking forever and he just continued telling me, “Just a little further–you’ll see.”

I started to hear voices behind me. Low, guttural whispers, but also soft laughter. It sounded like they were making fun of my ass which I imagined they could see through my hospital gown even though there was no light.

There were more and more voices behind me. They started talking louder. Their laughter sounded sinister.

“I’m not going any further,” I said and sat down so that they couldn’t keep making fun of my butt.

That’s when they all started attacking me. It was like being stung by scorpions. I couldn’t tell if something was biting me or I was being pricked multiple times by sharp tiny knives. It was the most intense pain I had ever felt and I wondered: how could this be so painful if it was a dream?

That’s when I remembered the paramedic’s words: “You need God, man.”

If there was a God, then I needed to have him come to my rescue immediately. I didn’t know what to say. I knew nothing about God. I never believed in any higher power before. Never seriously considered it. They kept stinging me. I was in agony.

For some reason, maybe because I didn’t know anything else that related to God, I started singing the only song I knew that talked about God.

“God bless America,
Land that I love.
Stand beside her and guide her.
Through the night with the light from above.”

The voices were agitated. They were clearly angered by my song, but they continued attacking me.

I saw just a speck of a light in the distance. It was very minute and far away, but the darkness was so thick that if you lit a match a hundred miles away, you would be able to see it.

“There’s no God,” the voices said.

That just made me sing even louder.

“From the mountains…to the prairies.
To the oceans white with foam.
God bless America, my home sweet home.
God bless America, my home sweet home.”

The pain started to subside. The light was getting bigger. It looked like it was coming toward me. The voices started to run away.

My eyes were shut, but then the light was so bright that it was still bleeding through my eyelids. I had to turn my head away. Then I felt the most intense electric shock and was suddenly back on that operating table.

The hospital room was empty. A different nurse walked by the door and turned her head and ran in to me.

“He’s got vitals!” she yelled out to the hallway.

The short Asian doctor entered.

“What happened?” I asked.

“You were dead for more than 30 minutes,” the doctor replied. “I’ve never seen a patient come back from that. How do you feel?”

“Like I could use some oxys,” I replied. “Can you send Tyra in here with some?”

The nurse and doctor looked at each other puzzled.

“Tyra’s shift ended,” the nurse said. “She left 20 minutes ago. How did you know her?”

I never made sense of this experience. I chalked it up to a really bad dream. Then I thought to myself, where’s my Lexus?

Lold… yeah that guy is pretty insufferable in any thread where the possibility of God gets mentioned