Forum
»
Hey Muslims, how you feel about your Prophet being debunked by the Dead Sea scrolls?
10-15-2023, 03:39 PM
-
#91
- MasterMorality
- Registered User
-
- MasterMorality
- Registered User
- Join Date: Feb 2023
- Age: 56
- Posts: 2,880
- Rep Power: 7074
-
-
Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
My own personal experiences in life have led me to an unshakeable belief that there is a sentient Creator (God). I studied history (BA, MA) and philosophy in university, formally (both when I was younger and now as an older student I am doing a Political Science MA) and informally (just reading stuff like this debate or the occasional book). From Islam I really like Suhrawardi and Avicenna and from Christianity I enjoy Augustine and Aquinas. I'll watch/read the thing you have posted. Thanks.So you believe in some higher power? How did you come to conclusions there was a God for yourself?
I tend not to dabble in philosophy tbh personally.
Yeah, I think the western world is dying of 5 things that Islam came to preserve.
Source from here:https://newmuslimguide.com/en/preliminaries/218
Preservation of Religion - otherwise, the religion of hedonism prevails.
Spoiler!
This is the main reason why Allah ﷻ created people and sent messengers to convey it to them and to preserve it, as the Qur’an states, “We sent a messenger among every people saying: ‘Worship Allah and keep clear of all false gods.’” (Soorat An-Nahl, 16:36) Indeed, Islam insists on preserving religion and protecting it against anything which is bound to mar its purity, such as worshipping false gods besides Allah or instead of Him (shirk), engaging in superstitions and committing forbidden acts.
Preservation of Life - inb4 I'm here to kill you, not at all.
Spoiler!
Allah ﷻ commands us to preserve human life even if this involves the commission of a sin, especially if one is driven by necessity to do so, as the Qur’an states, “But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.” (Soorat Al-Baqarah, 2:173)
He has forbidden suicide or any act against human life in general: “Do not cast yourselves into destruction.” (Soorat Al-Baqarah, 2:195)
He has also legislated punishments which serve to deter people from unjustly harming others, no matter what their religion may be: “O you who believe, fair retribution is prescribed for you in cases of murder.” (Soorat Al-Baqarah, 2:178)
Preservation of The Mind - hence why intoxications are forbidden. It is insane that alcohol is fine but drugs are illegal? What is the yardstick? Governments spend so much money on helping people with alcohol abuse (for example, the NHS reported back in 2003 that it spent up to £1.7b). Only the people profiting from this benefits. Destroys the family.
Spoiler!
Islam prohibits anything that is bound to have a negative effect on the mind and impair discernment. Indeed, the intellect is one of the greatest blessings Allah has bestowed upon us; it is the very faculty by which Allah has honoured man and favoured him over other creatures; it is also the reason that makes him subject to accountability in this life and in the hereafter.
It is for this reason that Allah ﷻ has forbidden all types of intoxicants and drugs, which He describes as an abomination of Satan’s handiwork: “O you who believe, intoxicants, gambling, stone altars and divining arrows are abominations devised by Satan. Avoid them so that you may be successful.” (Soorat Al-Maa’idah, 5:90)
Preservation of Progeny - and now kids growing up without their dads, it affects society. A weak, fatherless society is easy to control. Destroys the family.
Spoiler!
Islam stresses the importance of preserving progeny and starting a family in which the new generation acquire good manners and learn lofty principles. This is clear in a number of rulings which include the following:
It encourages marriage and prompts its adherents to make it easy for the unmarried people with the least expenses: “Marry off those among you who are unmarried.” (Soorat An-Noor, 24:32)
It prohibits all sinful, illicit relationships and has blocks all the ways leading to them: “Do not go near to fornication. It is an indecent act and an evil way.” (Soorat Al-Israa’, 17:32)
It forbids slandering or defaming people’s lineage and considers this act a major sin for which the perpetrator is subject to a specified punishment in this life in addition to severe chastisement in the hereafter.
It commands its adherents to preserve people’s honour and considers a person who is killed defending his honour or that of his family, a martyr.
Preservation of Property - this is a big one. Christians also outlawed usury until the 16th century and usury is a foul thing and people don't realize the reality of it. Only the wealthy benefit from this. Destroys the society.
Spoiler!
Islam urges its followers to protect their property and preserve their wealth and commands them to earn a living, making all commercial transactions lawful.
In order to protect wealth, it considers usury, deception and misappropriation of people’s wealth by using wrongful means, strictly forbidden. The Qur’an warns perpetrators of such acts, of severe punishments.
I hope, God Willing, you find the truth for yourself. If you have specifics, feel free to ask. Also, refer to post #26 in this thread which points to another thread I made a few days ago on some stuff I've read over time about the crucifixion question.
Some videos on why prohibition is forbidden I found interesting
I tend not to dabble in philosophy tbh personally.
Yeah, I think the western world is dying of 5 things that Islam came to preserve.
Source from here:https://newmuslimguide.com/en/preliminaries/218
Preservation of Religion - otherwise, the religion of hedonism prevails.
Spoiler!
This is the main reason why Allah ﷻ created people and sent messengers to convey it to them and to preserve it, as the Qur’an states, “We sent a messenger among every people saying: ‘Worship Allah and keep clear of all false gods.’” (Soorat An-Nahl, 16:36) Indeed, Islam insists on preserving religion and protecting it against anything which is bound to mar its purity, such as worshipping false gods besides Allah or instead of Him (shirk), engaging in superstitions and committing forbidden acts.
Preservation of Life - inb4 I'm here to kill you, not at all.
Spoiler!
Allah ﷻ commands us to preserve human life even if this involves the commission of a sin, especially if one is driven by necessity to do so, as the Qur’an states, “But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.” (Soorat Al-Baqarah, 2:173)
He has forbidden suicide or any act against human life in general: “Do not cast yourselves into destruction.” (Soorat Al-Baqarah, 2:195)
He has also legislated punishments which serve to deter people from unjustly harming others, no matter what their religion may be: “O you who believe, fair retribution is prescribed for you in cases of murder.” (Soorat Al-Baqarah, 2:178)
Preservation of The Mind - hence why intoxications are forbidden. It is insane that alcohol is fine but drugs are illegal? What is the yardstick? Governments spend so much money on helping people with alcohol abuse (for example, the NHS reported back in 2003 that it spent up to £1.7b). Only the people profiting from this benefits. Destroys the family.
Spoiler!
Islam prohibits anything that is bound to have a negative effect on the mind and impair discernment. Indeed, the intellect is one of the greatest blessings Allah has bestowed upon us; it is the very faculty by which Allah has honoured man and favoured him over other creatures; it is also the reason that makes him subject to accountability in this life and in the hereafter.
It is for this reason that Allah ﷻ has forbidden all types of intoxicants and drugs, which He describes as an abomination of Satan’s handiwork: “O you who believe, intoxicants, gambling, stone altars and divining arrows are abominations devised by Satan. Avoid them so that you may be successful.” (Soorat Al-Maa’idah, 5:90)
Preservation of Progeny - and now kids growing up without their dads, it affects society. A weak, fatherless society is easy to control. Destroys the family.
Spoiler!
Islam stresses the importance of preserving progeny and starting a family in which the new generation acquire good manners and learn lofty principles. This is clear in a number of rulings which include the following:
It encourages marriage and prompts its adherents to make it easy for the unmarried people with the least expenses: “Marry off those among you who are unmarried.” (Soorat An-Noor, 24:32)
It prohibits all sinful, illicit relationships and has blocks all the ways leading to them: “Do not go near to fornication. It is an indecent act and an evil way.” (Soorat Al-Israa’, 17:32)
It forbids slandering or defaming people’s lineage and considers this act a major sin for which the perpetrator is subject to a specified punishment in this life in addition to severe chastisement in the hereafter.
It commands its adherents to preserve people’s honour and considers a person who is killed defending his honour or that of his family, a martyr.
Preservation of Property - this is a big one. Christians also outlawed usury until the 16th century and usury is a foul thing and people don't realize the reality of it. Only the wealthy benefit from this. Destroys the society.
Spoiler!
Islam urges its followers to protect their property and preserve their wealth and commands them to earn a living, making all commercial transactions lawful.
In order to protect wealth, it considers usury, deception and misappropriation of people’s wealth by using wrongful means, strictly forbidden. The Qur’an warns perpetrators of such acts, of severe punishments.
I hope, God Willing, you find the truth for yourself. If you have specifics, feel free to ask. Also, refer to post #26 in this thread which points to another thread I made a few days ago on some stuff I've read over time about the crucifixion question.
Some videos on why prohibition is forbidden I found interesting
PS- I'll make sure to ask you any questions I have about Islam. Thanks.
Pro-Palestine, Pro-China, Pro-Iran, Pro-Russia, Pro-Venezuela
10-15-2023, 03:45 PM
-
#92
10-15-2023, 03:51 PM
-
#93
- miscerForLulz
- Join Date: Aug 2016
- Posts: 8,464
- Rep Power: 51479
-
-
Originally Posted By MasterMorality⏩
Cheers brahMy own personal experiences in life have led me to an unshakeable belief that there is a sentient Creator (God). I studied history (BA, MA) and philosophy in university, formally (both when I was younger and now as an older student I am doing a Political Science MA) and informally (just reading stuff like this debate or the occasional book). From Islam I really like Suhrawardi and Avicenna and from Christianity I enjoy Augustine and Aquinas. I'll watch/read the thing you have posted. Thanks.
PS- I'll make sure to ask you any questions I have about Islam. Thanks.
PS- I'll make sure to ask you any questions I have about Islam. Thanks.
Originally Posted By ezmac31⏩
Anyone wanna fill this brah in? You must be new to the Paul and I debate that is like what? A monthly occurrence?You’ve pathetically dodged him for pages now. Why not answer his question?
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
10-15-2023, 04:11 PM
-
#94
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
-
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
- Join Date: Apr 2006
- Location: United States
- Posts: 33,385
- Rep Power: 316746
-
-
Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
Yet you constantly dodge ALL THE TIME.Cheers brah
Anyone wanna fill this brah in? You must be new to the Paul and I debate that is like what? A monthly occurrence?
Anyone wanna fill this brah in? You must be new to the Paul and I debate that is like what? A monthly occurrence?
I state..”your prophet & holy book state that Jesus & the Bible were true”
You:Which one?
Me: IDK which one your false prophet was referring to, but even if it’s only the Torah & Gospels..that still proves the Quran as false…
And so it goes on & on lol
10-15-2023, 04:17 PM
-
#95
- ezmac31
- Join Date: Jun 2009
- Location: Michigan, United States
- Age: 43
- Posts: 20,162
- Subscribers: 1
- Rep Power: 248289
-
-
Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
Negged for being a cowardCheers brah
Anyone wanna fill this brah in? You must be new to the Paul and I debate that is like what? A monthly occurrence?
Anyone wanna fill this brah in? You must be new to the Paul and I debate that is like what? A monthly occurrence?
10-15-2023, 05:19 PM
-
#96
- miscerForLulz
- Join Date: Aug 2016
- Posts: 8,464
- Rep Power: 51479
-
-
Originally Posted By Paul
Great, if this is what you want to believe, go ahead. I've already answered and you keep ignoring my responses. Injeel is not the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. It is the revelation given to Jesus directly. The Gospel of Jesus, not according to these men. Even Christian scholars debate who wrote these books (not Muslims).Yet you constantly dodge ALL THE TIME.
I state..”your prophet & holy book state that Jesus & the Bible were true”
You:Which one?
Me: IDK which one your false prophet was referring to, but even if it’s only the Torah & Gospels..that still proves the Quran as false…
And so it goes on & on lol
I state..”your prophet & holy book state that Jesus & the Bible were true”
You:Which one?
Me: IDK which one your false prophet was referring to, but even if it’s only the Torah & Gospels..that still proves the Quran as false…
And so it goes on & on lol
Do you think we read or have Bibles in our mosques and discuss the Bible at all? No. So somehow all of us are following something you know that no Muslim found out yet? Perhaps you should look into how we interpret the Qu'ran (i.e. Tafsir). Go read 9:29 and then you will see exactly why...
What was the OP? The claim the Bible is preserved (according to your standard). Christians don't even agree on a book...so of course you will disagree with a different book altogether.
Originally Posted By ezmac31⏩
Am I being detained or free to go?Negged for being a coward
Christian brah? Is this the character of Jesus to you that he'd call ppl this? I won't do that as I believe Jesus wouldn't tell that to people and may God forgive you.
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
10-15-2023, 11:24 PM
-
#97
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
-
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
- Join Date: Apr 2006
- Location: United States
- Posts: 33,385
- Rep Power: 316746
-
-
Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
Your Quran specifically stated the TORAH is true..that makes the Quran false..do you not understand this??Great, if this is what you want to believe, go ahead. I've already answered and you keep ignoring my responses. Injeel is not the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. It is the revelation given to Jesus directly. The Gospel of Jesus, not according to these men. Even Christian scholars debate who wrote these books (not Muslims).
Do you think we read or have Bibles in our mosques and discuss the Bible at all? No. So somehow all of us are following something you know that no Muslim found out yet? Perhaps you should look into how we interpret the Qu'ran (i.e. Tafsir). Go read 9:29 and then you will see exactly why...
What was the OP? The claim the Bible is preserved (according to your standard). Christians don't even agree on a book...so of course you will disagree with a different book altogether.
Am I being detained or free to go?
Christian brah? Is this the character of Jesus to you that he'd call ppl this? I won't do that as I believe Jesus wouldn't tell that to people and may God forgive you.
Do you think we read or have Bibles in our mosques and discuss the Bible at all? No. So somehow all of us are following something you know that no Muslim found out yet? Perhaps you should look into how we interpret the Qu'ran (i.e. Tafsir). Go read 9:29 and then you will see exactly why...
What was the OP? The claim the Bible is preserved (according to your standard). Christians don't even agree on a book...so of course you will disagree with a different book altogether.
Am I being detained or free to go?
Christian brah? Is this the character of Jesus to you that he'd call ppl this? I won't do that as I believe Jesus wouldn't tell that to people and may God forgive you.
And now you claim it’s a “different Gospel”..just lol..please do tell, what exactly is this Muslim Gospel? Because you do realize the meaning of the Gospel..right???
10-15-2023, 11:56 PM
-
#98
10-16-2023, 08:22 AM
-
#99
- Holyfenix
- Registered User
-
- Holyfenix
- Registered User
- Join Date: Jun 2014
- Location: California, United States
- Age: 36
- Posts: 8,018
- Rep Power: 55892
-
-
Originally Posted By Abzu⏩
Can't take you moronic cultists seriously. His name wasn't Jesus Christ. It was Jesus(greek translation of Yeshua (Joshua)) of Nazareth. Christ is a title. Jesus never claimed to be a profit, he claimed to be the Son of God. You should at least read the gospels before using your warlords version of events to counter the bible.abraham, the man without whom christianity would not exist placed the al-hajaru al-aswad in the kaaba himself, that means he placed the "Black Stone" into the "House of God".
muslims recognize abraham as an ultimate prophet as all other prophets would not be possible without his work.
You are at war with yourself, stop it, get some help.
The prophet muhammad recognized jesus christ(real name: KRST) and so do his followers today, they think christ(real name: KRST) will return to Earth to bring justice and defeat the antichrist.
muslims recognize abraham as an ultimate prophet as all other prophets would not be possible without his work.
You are at war with yourself, stop it, get some help.
The prophet muhammad recognized jesus christ(real name: KRST) and so do his followers today, they think christ(real name: KRST) will return to Earth to bring justice and defeat the antichrist.
*Updated* If you can't hit a 320 yard drive, are you even a man?
10-16-2023, 08:39 AM
-
#100
- miscerForLulz
- Join Date: Aug 2016
- Posts: 8,464
- Rep Power: 51479
-
-
Originally Posted By Paul
Thanks for the info you've discovered, let me go bring this up in congregation next time.Your Quran specifically stated the TORAH is true..that makes the Quran false..do you not understand this??
And now you claim it’s a “different Gospel”..just lol..please do tell, what exactly is this Muslim Gospel? Because you do realize the meaning of the Gospel..right???
And now you claim it’s a “different Gospel”..just lol..please do tell, what exactly is this Muslim Gospel? Because you do realize the meaning of the Gospel..right???
Originally Posted By Holyfenix⏩
huge if trueCan't take you moronic cultists seriously. His name wasn't Jesus Christ. It was Jesus(greek translation of Yeshua (Joshua)) of Nazareth. Christ is a title. Jesus never claimed to be a profit, he claimed to be the Son of God. You should at least read the gospels before using your warlords version of events to counter the bible.
edit:
Jesus never claimed to be a profit, he claimed to be the Son of God.
Explain Acts 2:22 for us then?Hmm, God has sons by the tons in the Bible? What do you mean by son exactly?
Psalms 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (David), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
You should at least read the gospels before using your warlords version of events to counter the bible.
So fighting people means you shouldn't follow your book as well, right? What happens according to your belief when Jesus returns? Will he be tickling people with his sword? I hope you remain consistent with this if you happen to live during that time.Or perhaps, explain 1 Samuel 15 to us? I just want consistency that's all.
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
10-16-2023, 10:32 AM
-
#101
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
-
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
- Join Date: Apr 2006
- Location: United States
- Posts: 33,385
- Rep Power: 316746
-
-
Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
Again, because you continually take scripture out of context, you either willingly misuse & misinterpret it or simply are ignorant to its meaning.Thanks for the info you've discovered, let me go bring this up in congregation next time.
huge if true
edit:
Explain Acts 2:22 for us then?
Hmm, God has sons by the tons in the Bible? What do you mean by son exactly?
Psalms 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (David), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
So fighting people means you shouldn't follow your book as well, right? What happens according to your belief when Jesus returns? Will he be tickling people with his sword? I hope you remain consistent with this if you happen to live during that time.
Or perhaps, explain 1 Samuel 15 to us? I just want consistency that's all.
huge if true
edit:
Explain Acts 2:22 for us then?
Hmm, God has sons by the tons in the Bible? What do you mean by son exactly?
Psalms 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (David), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
So fighting people means you shouldn't follow your book as well, right? What happens according to your belief when Jesus returns? Will he be tickling people with his sword? I hope you remain consistent with this if you happen to live during that time.
Or perhaps, explain 1 Samuel 15 to us? I just want consistency that's all.
Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. I know you won’t understand this, but a being can only beget the same likeness of that being…
An ape can only beget an ape, a dolphin can only beget a dolphin, God can only beget God…
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Now, maybe you can stop dodging, what is this Muslim Gospel of Christ you speak of?
And again, if the Torah is true (as your Quran states) then the Quran is false, & Mohammed is a liar.
Take note that Mohammad & the Quran always legitimizes the Bible, Torah & Gospel..you will find no validation of the false prophet Mohammed or the Koran in the Bible or the Torah.
10-16-2023, 11:16 AM
-
#102
- miscerForLulz
- Join Date: Aug 2016
- Posts: 8,464
- Rep Power: 51479
-
-
Originally Posted By Paul
What does the verse in Psalms mean? I am curious because David is also called this (along with other people). The hard thing I just don't get is if you say God is eternal, what does begotten mean? They contradict.Again, because you continually take scripture out of context, you either willingly misuse & misinterpret it or simply are ignorant to its meaning.
Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. I know you won’t understand this, but a being can only beget the same likeness of that being…
An ape can only beget an ape, a dolphin can only beget a dolphin, God can only beget God…
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. I know you won’t understand this, but a being can only beget the same likeness of that being…
An ape can only beget an ape, a dolphin can only beget a dolphin, God can only beget God…
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
What does son mean to Christians?
Don't worry what I think lol...only your point of view.
Originally Posted By Paul
Similarly, like how I'm misinterpreting the Bible verses above according to you, you're free to reject what I wrote and if you are right, you don't need to explain the begotten or the age contradictions part over and over.Now, maybe you can stop dodging, what is this Muslim Gospel of Christ you speak of?
And again, if the Torah is true (as your Quran states) then the Quran is false, & Mohammed is a liar.
Take note that Mohammad & the Quran always legitimizes the Bible, Torah & Gospel..you will find no validation of the false prophet Mohammed or the Koran in the Bible or the Torah.
And again, if the Torah is true (as your Quran states) then the Quran is false, & Mohammed is a liar.
Take note that Mohammad & the Quran always legitimizes the Bible, Torah & Gospel..you will find no validation of the false prophet Mohammed or the Koran in the Bible or the Torah.
Refer to post above, the scripture given to Jesus and not the gospel writers. You made a good point but I'll give you an example...there are people in this world who disagree with what a man/woman is according to our definition (I hope we're on the same page lol). If I go and tell them a man is a man and a woman is a woman according to our definition, they won't agree. You somehow imposed the definition of injeel on the Quran based off your Biblical interpretation to people who don't even accept your definition to begin with.
If I show you this verse, what do you think it means? Does this mean I should kill you?
9:5
Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (ones who associate partners with Allah) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (prayers), and give Zakat (charity), then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
10-16-2023, 11:28 AM
-
#103
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
-
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
- Join Date: Apr 2006
- Location: United States
- Posts: 33,385
- Rep Power: 316746
-
-
Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
It’s like you didn’t even read what I postedWhat does the verse in Psalms mean? I am curious because David is also called this (along with other people). The hard thing I just don't get is if you say God is eternal, what does begotten mean? They contradict.
What does son mean to Christians?
Don't worry what I think lol...only your point of view.
Similarly, like how I'm misinterpreting the Bible verses above according to you, you're free to reject what I wrote and if you are right, you don't need to explain the begotten or the age contradictions part over and over.
Refer to post above, the scripture given to Jesus and not the gospel writers. You made a good point but I'll give you an example...there are people in this world who disagree with what a man/woman is according to our definition (I hope we're on the same page lol). If I go and tell them a man is a man and a woman is a woman according to our definition, they won't agree. You somehow imposed the definition of injeel on the Quran based off your Biblical interpretation to people who don't even accept your definition to begin with.
If I show you this verse, what do you think it means? Does this mean I should kill you?
9:5
Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (ones who associate partners with Allah) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (prayers), and give Zakat (charity), then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
What does son mean to Christians?
Don't worry what I think lol...only your point of view.
Similarly, like how I'm misinterpreting the Bible verses above according to you, you're free to reject what I wrote and if you are right, you don't need to explain the begotten or the age contradictions part over and over.
Refer to post above, the scripture given to Jesus and not the gospel writers. You made a good point but I'll give you an example...there are people in this world who disagree with what a man/woman is according to our definition (I hope we're on the same page lol). If I go and tell them a man is a man and a woman is a woman according to our definition, they won't agree. You somehow imposed the definition of injeel on the Quran based off your Biblical interpretation to people who don't even accept your definition to begin with.
If I show you this verse, what do you think it means? Does this mean I should kill you?
9:5
Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (ones who associate partners with Allah) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (prayers), and give Zakat (charity), then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Let me try to break it down as simply as I can
Even a random online dictionary gets it & uses Jn 3:16 lol..
“begotten”
/biˈɡɔtɪn/
Something is begotten when it's been generated by procreation — in other words, it's been fathered.
A somewhat old fashioned adjective, begotten is the past participle of the verb beget, which means to father or produce as offspring. You might recognize this word from John 3:16, one of the most popular and most often quoted bible verses: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/begotten
David was not begotten by God, please reference the Scripture where you falsely assume he was.
Please stop dodging..the Quran affirms the Torah, Mohammad affirms the Torah, & the Gospel (you still have not presented this Gospel of Christ in Muslim teachings btw)
If the Torah is true, the Quran is not..& the Quran states the Torah is true..you understand this?
And if you are going to claim either the Torah or Gospels were corrupted, you need to present evidence to your claim, & post the changes that were made to each.
I’ll wait
Surely you’ll deliver
10-16-2023, 11:35 AM
-
#104
- miscerForLulz
- Join Date: Aug 2016
- Posts: 8,464
- Rep Power: 51479
-
-
Originally Posted By Paul
What are we speaking? Some other English I've never heard of? What does son mean? Are we saying God and Mary got together and produced a son? A step son? An adopted son? An old man calling a young boy "my son"? Something else?It’s like you didn’t even read what I posted
Let me try to break it down as simply as I can
Even a random online dictionary gets it & uses Jn 3:16 lol..
“begotten”
/biˈɡɔtɪn/
Something is begotten when it's been generated by procreation — in other words, it's been fathered.
A somewhat old fashioned adjective, begotten is the past participle of the verb beget, which means to father or produce as offspring. You might recognize this word from John 3:16, one of the most popular and most often quoted bible verses: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/begotten
David was not begotten by God, please reference the Scripture where you falsely assume he was.
Please stop dodging..the Quran affirms the Torah, Mohammad affirms the Torah, & the Gospel (you still have not presented this Gospel of Christ in Muslim teachings btw)
If the Torah is true, the Quran is not..& the Quran states the Torah is true..you understand this?
And if you are going to claim either the Torah or Gospels were corrupted, you need to present evidence to your claim, & post the changes that were made to each.
I’ll wait
Surely you’ll deliver
Let me try to break it down as simply as I can
Even a random online dictionary gets it & uses Jn 3:16 lol..
“begotten”
/biˈɡɔtɪn/
Something is begotten when it's been generated by procreation — in other words, it's been fathered.
A somewhat old fashioned adjective, begotten is the past participle of the verb beget, which means to father or produce as offspring. You might recognize this word from John 3:16, one of the most popular and most often quoted bible verses: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/begotten
David was not begotten by God, please reference the Scripture where you falsely assume he was.
Please stop dodging..the Quran affirms the Torah, Mohammad affirms the Torah, & the Gospel (you still have not presented this Gospel of Christ in Muslim teachings btw)
If the Torah is true, the Quran is not..& the Quran states the Torah is true..you understand this?
And if you are going to claim either the Torah or Gospels were corrupted, you need to present evidence to your claim, & post the changes that were made to each.
I’ll wait
Surely you’ll deliver
So God has a father? I still don't understand.
Exodus 4:22 talks about Jacob being his first born (but maybe I'm not understanding this either...maybe son means something else here?).
21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.
23 So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.” ’ ”
No one is dodging, I gave you an answer...I'm not here to make sure you're happy with it.
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
10-16-2023, 11:45 AM
-
#105
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
-
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
- Join Date: Apr 2006
- Location: United States
- Posts: 33,385
- Rep Power: 316746
-
-
Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
I’ve posted the definition for you, & you still seem to not understand.What are we speaking? Some other English I've never heard of? What does son mean? Are we saying God and Mary got together and produced a son? A step son? An adopted son? An old man calling a young boy "my son"? Something else?
So God has a father? I still don't understand.
Exodus 4:22 talks about Jacob being his first born (but maybe I'm not understanding this either...maybe son means something else here?).
21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.
23 So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.” ’ ”
No one is dodging, I gave you an answer...I'm not here to make sure you're happy with it.
So God has a father? I still don't understand.
Exodus 4:22 talks about Jacob being his first born (but maybe I'm not understanding this either...maybe son means something else here?).
21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.
23 So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.” ’ ”
No one is dodging, I gave you an answer...I'm not here to make sure you're happy with it.
Let’s try it this way, what is the only thing a raccoon can beget?
A:a raccoon
It can beget no other animal, no other being.
God can only beget God. Man, whether it be Mosses or Jacob was made by God.
Do you understand what the difference between made & begotten is?
Is English not your first language?
You did not answer my question.
Is the Torah true according to the Quran?
10-16-2023, 11:49 AM
-
#106
- miscerForLulz
- Join Date: Aug 2016
- Posts: 8,464
- Rep Power: 51479
-
-
Originally Posted By Paul
I think this point is mute...if you believe God can birth another God, so be it.I’ve posted the definition for you, & you still seem to not understand.
Let’s try it this way, what is the only thing a raccoon can beget?
A:a raccoon
It can beget no other animal, no other being.
God can only beget God. Man, whether it be Mosses or Jacob was made by God.
Do you understand what the difference between made & begotten is?
Is English not your first language?
You did not answer my question.
Is the Torah true according to the Quran?
Let’s try it this way, what is the only thing a raccoon can beget?
A:a raccoon
It can beget no other animal, no other being.
God can only beget God. Man, whether it be Mosses or Jacob was made by God.
Do you understand what the difference between made & begotten is?
Is English not your first language?
You did not answer my question.
Is the Torah true according to the Quran?
Which Taurat? The one changed by the scribes according to us (and Jeremiah according to you guys) or the one you think is still preserved?
What does my language have to do with the question? I'm blessed to speak a few languages...maybe I should pick up Hebrew and Greek next.
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
10-16-2023, 12:00 PM
-
#107
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
-
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
- Join Date: Apr 2006
- Location: United States
- Posts: 33,385
- Rep Power: 316746
-
-
Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
God the Father set His Son, Jesus upon Marry…who gave birth to the Lord that always was & always will be.I think this point is mute...if you believe God can birth another God, so be it.
Which Taurat? The one changed by the scribes according to us (and Jeremiah according to you guys) or the one you think is still preserved?
What does my language have to do with the question? I'm blessed to speak a few languages...maybe I should pick up Hebrew and Greek next.
Which Taurat? The one changed by the scribes according to us (and Jeremiah according to you guys) or the one you think is still preserved?
What does my language have to do with the question? I'm blessed to speak a few languages...maybe I should pick up Hebrew and Greek next.
Philippians 2:5-9
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
You keep asking “what Torah”, “what Gospel”….again, YOUR Quran state the Torah & Gospel are true, so please do tell, what Torah & Gospel does YOUR book speak of?
And what changes do you claim were made?
Be specific
Stop dodging
10-16-2023, 12:13 PM
-
#108
- miscerForLulz
- Join Date: Aug 2016
- Posts: 8,464
- Rep Power: 51479
-
-
Originally Posted By Paul
So let's discuss that...and really dumb it down...did God impregnate Mary like how my child was born via my wife? Or are we talking something else?God the Father set His Son, Jesus upon Marry…who gave birth to the Lord that always was & always will be.
You keep asking “what Torah”, “what Gospel”….again, YOUR Quran state the Torah & Gospel are true, so please do tell, what Torah & Gospel does YOUR book speak of?
And what changes do you claim were made?
Be specific
Stop dodging
You keep asking “what Torah”, “what Gospel”….again, YOUR Quran state the Torah & Gospel are true, so please do tell, what Torah & Gospel does YOUR book speak of?
And what changes do you claim were made?
Be specific
Stop dodging
The one the scribes changed over time (such as blaspheming the Prophets of old, we don't entertain this whatsoever).
Good question...what changes? We use the Furqan to judge it.
For example, if the Bible says "God is one", no issue. If the Bible agrees with something in the Quran, no issue.
If it doesn't, we reject it (like of David/Uriah, we don't agree with this).
If it neither agrees or disagrees, we don't reject or deny it (like the number of disciples).
The books you have may contain some truths but we use the Qu'ran to determine that (in an Islamic context), hence why it's called Al Furqan (The Criterion). I don't deny the Bible has many good things...but there's thing we clearly will and never will agree with (such as atonement). We don't use the Bible at all in Islam whatsoever...this is just me reading it purely to see what others believe. We have no Bibles in our mosques.
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
10-16-2023, 12:24 PM
-
#109
- Holyfenix
- Registered User
-
- Holyfenix
- Registered User
- Join Date: Jun 2014
- Location: California, United States
- Age: 36
- Posts: 8,018
- Rep Power: 55892
-
-
Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
Why must you muslims always lie and obfuscate when debating your joke of a religion? Read the gospels moron. God placed Yeshua in Mary's womb. Joeseph even thought she had committed adultery. An angel came to him and explained what had happened and that Yeshua was God's Son come in living flesh. Its all there black and white plain as day. You just like the idea of following your ****philic warlord so you can justify immoral actions. Yeshua is the Son of God and the Son of Man.What are we speaking? Some other English I've never heard of? What does son mean? Are we saying God and Mary got together and produced a son? A step son? An adopted son? An old man calling a young boy "my son"? Something else?
So God has a father? I still don't understand.
Exodus 4:22 talks about Jacob being his first born (but maybe I'm not understanding this either...maybe son means something else here?).
21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.
23 So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.” ’ ”
No one is dodging, I gave you an answer...I'm not here to make sure you're happy with it.
So God has a father? I still don't understand.
Exodus 4:22 talks about Jacob being his first born (but maybe I'm not understanding this either...maybe son means something else here?).
21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.
23 So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.” ’ ”
No one is dodging, I gave you an answer...I'm not here to make sure you're happy with it.
*Updated* If you can't hit a 320 yard drive, are you even a man?
10-16-2023, 12:34 PM
-
#110
- miscerForLulz
- Join Date: Aug 2016
- Posts: 8,464
- Rep Power: 51479
-
-
Originally Posted By Holyfenix⏩
Refer to post 97, second part. You could have explained it in a calm way like Jesus told you to be kind to people. Why are you not being consistent with this if you believe it? You should be consistent in your teachings brah, otherwise, isn't this hypocritical?Why must you muslims always lie and obfuscate when debating your joke of a religion? Read the gospels moron. God placed Yeshua in Mary's womb. Joeseph even thought she had committed adultery. An angel came to him and explained what had happened and that Yeshua was God's Son come in living flesh. Its all there black and white plain as day. You just like the idea of following your ****philic warlord so you can justify immoral actions. Yeshua is the Son of God and the Son of Man.
Let's discuss that. Do you think it's fair to kill people centuries after for something their forefathers did? Apparently, Samuel anoints Saul as King and tells him God says to kill the Amalekites for something they did to Jacob way before. What did the sheep and camels do btw? Did the forefather camels also attack Jacob?
1 Samuel 15
1 Samuel also said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over His people, over Israel. Now therefore, heed the voice of the words of the Lord.
2 Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”
https://journals.flvc.org/FAU_Underg...%20years%20old.
The age of consent in America has a very broad and peculiar history in the American justice system. The age of consent has been a widely debated legal topic dating back to the early 1800s. During this period, the age of consent was just seven years old.
Are you again going to be consistent with you claims and say your forefathers were as well? @MasterMorality, teach your Christian brothers a bit of their own history (and history worldwide before the 19th century) if they see this lol. Tell me about Jewish law too, the same one you believed Jesus revealed.2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
10-16-2023, 12:35 PM
-
#111
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
-
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
- Join Date: Apr 2006
- Location: United States
- Posts: 33,385
- Rep Power: 316746
-
-
Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
Oh boy, this is not a good look for Muslims. Your Quran states the Torah & Gospels are true. You state changes were made, & therefore they are “not true”. I’m asking you to be specific to what changes were made.So let's discuss that...and really dumb it down...did God impregnate Mary like how my child was born via my wife? Or are we talking something else?
The one the scribes changed over time (such as blaspheming the Prophets of old, we don't entertain this whatsoever).
Good question...what changes? We use the Furqan to judge it.
For example, if the Bible says "God is one", no issue. If the Bible agrees with something in the Quran, no issue.
If it doesn't, we reject it (like of David/Uriah, we don't agree with this).
If it neither agrees or disagrees, we don't reject or deny it (like the number of disciples).
The books you have may contain some truths but we use the Qu'ran to determine that (in an Islamic context), hence why it's called Al Furqan (The Criterion). I don't deny the Bible has many good things...but there's thing we clearly will and never will agree with (such as atonement). We don't use the Bible at all in Islam whatsoever...this is just me reading it purely to see what others believe. We have no Bibles in our mosques.
The one the scribes changed over time (such as blaspheming the Prophets of old, we don't entertain this whatsoever).
Good question...what changes? We use the Furqan to judge it.
For example, if the Bible says "God is one", no issue. If the Bible agrees with something in the Quran, no issue.
If it doesn't, we reject it (like of David/Uriah, we don't agree with this).
If it neither agrees or disagrees, we don't reject or deny it (like the number of disciples).
The books you have may contain some truths but we use the Qu'ran to determine that (in an Islamic context), hence why it's called Al Furqan (The Criterion). I don't deny the Bible has many good things...but there's thing we clearly will and never will agree with (such as atonement). We don't use the Bible at all in Islam whatsoever...this is just me reading it purely to see what others believe. We have no Bibles in our mosques.
Where does Mohammad state certain changes were made? Where does he or your book state what Scriptures are true, & which are not?
What parts of the Torah are true (your Quran does not specify, so I have to assume you are only giving your opinion here)?
God the Father did not have sexual relations with Mary, your Quran states Mary is a purified woman..
“O Mary, indeed Allāh has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds."
I’m not sure if I should take your notion of sexual relationships as a knock to my faith or yours..seems you are making a slight on Mary, so I’ll leave that on you.
God put child upon Mary asexually. Strange how you will present Scriptures to argue with Christians yet we can see once again you really have no understanding of the Bible or Christianity if you failed to grasp one of its core concepts & beliefs.
You believe God created the world, male & female, Adam & Eve, but you limit his power & authority to not be able to speak birth unto a woman, but can speak the creation of the universe?
I don’t understand your limiting of God..
Why would God be able to speak the universe into creation, but not a child in the womb?
10-16-2023, 12:42 PM
-
#112
- miscerForLulz
- Join Date: Aug 2016
- Posts: 8,464
- Rep Power: 51479
-
-
Originally Posted By Paul
No not at all. Don't think I'm disrespecting Mary whatsoever. I'm asking you what it mean to your belief. I see Jesus called the Son of God, so I'm asking...stop inserting claims that I never made. I asked above...what does son mean?Oh boy, this is not a good look for Muslims. Your Quran states the Torah & Gospels are true. You state changes were made, & therefore they are “not true”. I’m asking you to be specific to what changes were made.
Where does Mohammad state certain changes were made? Where does he or your book state what Scriptures are true, & which are not?
What parts of the Torah are true (your Quran does not specify, so I have to assume you are only giving your opinion here)?
God the Father did not have sexual relations with Mary, your Quran states Mary is a purified woman..
“O Mary, indeed Allāh has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds."
I’m not sure if I should take your notion of sexual relationships as a knock to my faith or yours..seems you are making a slight on Mary, so I’ll leave that on you.
God put child upon Mary asexually. Strange how you will present Scriptures to argue with Christians yet we can see once again you really have no understanding of the Bible or Christianity if you failed to grasp one of its core concepts & beliefs.
You believe God created the world, male & female, Adam & Eve, but you limit his power & authority to not be able to speak birth unto a woman, but can speak the creation of the universe?
I don’t understand your limiting of God..
Why would God be able to speak the universe into creation, but not a child in the womb?
Where does Mohammad state certain changes were made? Where does he or your book state what Scriptures are true, & which are not?
What parts of the Torah are true (your Quran does not specify, so I have to assume you are only giving your opinion here)?
God the Father did not have sexual relations with Mary, your Quran states Mary is a purified woman..
“O Mary, indeed Allāh has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds."
I’m not sure if I should take your notion of sexual relationships as a knock to my faith or yours..seems you are making a slight on Mary, so I’ll leave that on you.
God put child upon Mary asexually. Strange how you will present Scriptures to argue with Christians yet we can see once again you really have no understanding of the Bible or Christianity if you failed to grasp one of its core concepts & beliefs.
You believe God created the world, male & female, Adam & Eve, but you limit his power & authority to not be able to speak birth unto a woman, but can speak the creation of the universe?
I don’t understand your limiting of God..
Why would God be able to speak the universe into creation, but not a child in the womb?
I'm limiting his power? Okay...be consistent here. Can God cease to exist if he wanted? Do not limit his power.
Pause as one of your Christian brothers is jumping in...give him time. You and I will go back and forth brah anyways lol so give him a chance.
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
10-16-2023, 12:52 PM
-
#113
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
-
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
- Join Date: Apr 2006
- Location: United States
- Posts: 33,385
- Rep Power: 316746
-
-
Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
You keep insinuating the same false notion.No not at all. Don't think I'm disrespecting Mary whatsoever. I'm asking you what it mean to your belief. I see Jesus called the Son of God, so I'm asking...stop inserting claims that I never made. I asked above...what does son mean?
I'm limiting his power? Okay...be consistent here. Can God cease to exist if he wanted? Do not limit his power.
Pause as one of your Christian brothers is jumping in...give him time. You and I will go back and forth brah anyways lol so give him a chance.
I'm limiting his power? Okay...be consistent here. Can God cease to exist if he wanted? Do not limit his power.
Pause as one of your Christian brothers is jumping in...give him time. You and I will go back and forth brah anyways lol so give him a chance.
I’ll try to dumb it down for you once again, I’ve explained what begotten means, I gave you the definition.
Do you still not understand the meaning of the word?
Do you need it explained further?
What exactly do you think it means when the Bible states, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God?
Do you not believe God spoke creation into existence when he created the earth, heavens & man?
So follow your own words..”be consistent” if God can speak the universe & the first man & woman unto existence, why then is He not able to speak creation in the womb into existence?
Explain..
10-16-2023, 01:01 PM
-
#114
- miscerForLulz
- Join Date: Aug 2016
- Posts: 8,464
- Rep Power: 51479
-
-
Originally Posted By Paul
Idk if ur brah is gonna jump back in...but please, if he is, all I want him is to be consistent with any claims he makes.You keep insinuating the same false notion.
I’ll try to dumb it down for you once again, I’ve explained what begotten means, I gave you the definition.
Do you still not understand the meaning of the word?
Do you need it explained further?
What exactly do you think it means when the Bible states, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God?
Do you not believe God spike creation into existence when he created the earth, heavens & man?
I’ll try to dumb it down for you once again, I’ve explained what begotten means, I gave you the definition.
Do you still not understand the meaning of the word?
Do you need it explained further?
What exactly do you think it means when the Bible states, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God?
Do you not believe God spike creation into existence when he created the earth, heavens & man?
Begotten implies there is no eternity...starts at a point of time. Produced as offspring as you just pointed. This makes no sense...God isn't produced. Your definition is blasphemy (according to me), God fathered himself and at the same time, he was always eternal. God dying too...lol...will never accept this idea either (side point anyways).
If you replying to this, go ahead. Going in circles on this and you have your belief in this. I'm not accepting this definition at all. You can reply to educate your brothers though if you want.
Son...what does this mean? Biological? Adopted? Step? Old man calling young man his son? Some other definition I don't know of?
Can God cease to exist according to your definition? You said I'm limiting him apparently.
Can you elaborate the last point and what exactly you mean?
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
10-16-2023, 01:14 PM
-
#115
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
-
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
- Join Date: Apr 2006
- Location: United States
- Posts: 33,385
- Rep Power: 316746
-
-
Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
Let’s break it down..Idk if ur brah is gonna jump back in...but please, if he is, all I want him is to be consistent with any claims he makes.
Begotten implies there is no eternity...starts at a point of time. Produced as offspring as you just pointed. This makes no sense...God isn't produced. Your definition is blasphemy (according to me), God fathered himself and at the same time, he was always eternal. God dying too...lol...will never accept this idea either (side point anyways).
If you replying to this, go ahead. Going in circles on this and you have your belief in this. I'm not accepting this definition at all. You can reply to educate your brothers though if you want.
Son...what does this mean? Biological? Adopted? Step? Old man calling young man his son? Some other definition I don't know of?
Can God cease to exist according to your definition? You said I'm limiting him apparently.
Can you elaborate the last point and what exactly you mean?
Begotten implies there is no eternity...starts at a point of time. Produced as offspring as you just pointed. This makes no sense...God isn't produced. Your definition is blasphemy (according to me), God fathered himself and at the same time, he was always eternal. God dying too...lol...will never accept this idea either (side point anyways).
If you replying to this, go ahead. Going in circles on this and you have your belief in this. I'm not accepting this definition at all. You can reply to educate your brothers though if you want.
Son...what does this mean? Biological? Adopted? Step? Old man calling young man his son? Some other definition I don't know of?
Can God cease to exist according to your definition? You said I'm limiting him apparently.
Can you elaborate the last point and what exactly you mean?
“Begotten implies there is no eternity...starts at a point of time”
First I’ll need you to source that. Second, this would in no way be contradictory to Christian beliefs. Jesus (God became man, when Mary conceived of Him) He still existed, always has, always will.
Rev 22:12-13
And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
The Scripture above is Jesus speaking.
Rev 1:7-8
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,”
Whom do you think is speaking in the Scripture above here??
As far as God dying.
What is the penalty for sin? Who has the ability to forgive sin?
Can man pay the penalty for another man’s sin? Can an animal? By whose authority do you claim?
We’ll see what you do with that
As far as your son question..I’ll have to ask you again, what do you think the Bible means when it claims Jesus is the only begotten Son of God? Is this one of the Scriptures that you claimed were changed? What is your source for that & what did the original state? Citation needed please
10-16-2023, 01:30 PM
-
#116
- miscerForLulz
- Join Date: Aug 2016
- Posts: 8,464
- Rep Power: 51479
-
-
Originally Posted By Paul
I'm not here for an English lesson, good if you wanna educate your brahs though...if u wanna put the sentence eternally begotten together, that's on you guys. We can agree to disagree.Let’s break it down..
“Begotten implies there is no eternity...starts at a point of time”
First I’ll need you to source that. Second, this would in no way be contradictory to Christian beliefs. Jesus (God became man, when Mary conceived of Him) He still existed, always has, always will.
Rev 22:12-13
And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
The Scripture above is Jesus speaking.
Rev 1:7-8
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,”
Whom do you think is speaking in the Scripture above here??
As far as God dying.
What is the penalty for sin? Who has the ability to forgive sin?
Can man pay the penalty for another man’s sin? Can an animal? By whose authority do you claim?
We’ll see what you do with that
As far as your son question..I’ll have to ask you again, what do you think the Bible means when it claims Jesus is the only begotten Son of God? Is this one of the Scriptures that you claimed were changed? What is your source for that & what did the original state? Citation needed please
“Begotten implies there is no eternity...starts at a point of time”
First I’ll need you to source that. Second, this would in no way be contradictory to Christian beliefs. Jesus (God became man, when Mary conceived of Him) He still existed, always has, always will.
Rev 22:12-13
And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
The Scripture above is Jesus speaking.
Rev 1:7-8
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,”
Whom do you think is speaking in the Scripture above here??
As far as God dying.
What is the penalty for sin? Who has the ability to forgive sin?
Can man pay the penalty for another man’s sin? Can an animal? By whose authority do you claim?
We’ll see what you do with that
As far as your son question..I’ll have to ask you again, what do you think the Bible means when it claims Jesus is the only begotten Son of God? Is this one of the Scriptures that you claimed were changed? What is your source for that & what did the original state? Citation needed please
Let's play this game then...the point of the thread. Show me the complete Bible from Jesus time according to you guys. Show me Jesus said what's in your Bible. I at least have evidence for my Qu'ran (whether it's true or not is another question). Any mode you want (oral, paper copies).
So, in order for God to forgive me, he has to kill himself (only way after Noah and Abrahams time...sad for them they didn't get the chance for this). If a child came to my store and took a chocolate bar, should I execute myself to make it right or am I more just than God and pardon the kid? Idk how killing an innocent man makes any sense...isn't that more evil on top?
Guess what Allah did, he forgave them.
7:19-23
˹Allah said,˺ “O Adam! Live with your wife in Paradise and eat from wherever you please, but do not approach this tree, or else you will be wrongdoers.”
Then Satan tempted them in order to expose what was hidden of their nakedness. He said, “Your Lord has forbidden this tree to you only to prevent you from becoming angels or immortals.”
And he swore to them, “I am truly your sincere advisor.”
So he brought about their fall through deception. And when they tasted of the tree, their nakedness was exposed to them, prompting them to cover themselves with leaves from Paradise. Then their Lord called out to them, “Did I not forbid you from that tree and ˹did I not˺ tell you that Satan is your sworn enemy?”
They replied, “Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If You do not forgive us and have mercy on us, we will certainly be losers.”
and he forgave them...˹Allah said,˺ “O Adam! Live with your wife in Paradise and eat from wherever you please, but do not approach this tree, or else you will be wrongdoers.”
Then Satan tempted them in order to expose what was hidden of their nakedness. He said, “Your Lord has forbidden this tree to you only to prevent you from becoming angels or immortals.”
And he swore to them, “I am truly your sincere advisor.”
So he brought about their fall through deception. And when they tasted of the tree, their nakedness was exposed to them, prompting them to cover themselves with leaves from Paradise. Then their Lord called out to them, “Did I not forbid you from that tree and ˹did I not˺ tell you that Satan is your sworn enemy?”
They replied, “Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If You do not forgive us and have mercy on us, we will certainly be losers.”
2:36-37
But Satan deceived them—leading to their fall from the ˹blissful˺ state they were in, and We said, “Descend from the heavens ˹to the earth˺ as enemies to each other. You will find in the earth a residence and provision for your appointed stay.”
Then Adam was inspired with words ˹of prayer˺ by his Lord, so He accepted his repentance. Surely He is the Accepter of Repentance, Most Merciful.
But Satan deceived them—leading to their fall from the ˹blissful˺ state they were in, and We said, “Descend from the heavens ˹to the earth˺ as enemies to each other. You will find in the earth a residence and provision for your appointed stay.”
Then Adam was inspired with words ˹of prayer˺ by his Lord, so He accepted his repentance. Surely He is the Accepter of Repentance, Most Merciful.
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
10-16-2023, 01:49 PM
-
#117
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
-
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
- Join Date: Apr 2006
- Location: United States
- Posts: 33,385
- Rep Power: 316746
-
-
Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
Sorry but this is on you & your false prophet..your Quran & false teacher (Mohammed) claim the Bible, the Gospels & Torah is true.I'm not here for an English lesson, good if you wanna educate your brahs though...if u wanna put the sentence eternally begotten together, that's on you guys. We can agree to disagree.
Let's play this game then...the point of the thread. Show me the complete Bible from Jesus time according to you guys. Show me Jesus said what's in your Bible. I at least have evidence for my Qu'ran (whether it's true or not is another question). Any mode you want (oral, paper copies).
So, in order for God to forgive me, he has to kill himself (only way after Noah and Abrahams time...sad for them they didn't get the chance for this). If a child came to my store and took a chocolate bar, should I execute myself to make it right or am I more just than God and pardon the kid? Idk how killing an innocent man makes any sense...isn't that more evil on top?
Guess what Allah did, he forgave them.
and he forgave them...
Let's play this game then...the point of the thread. Show me the complete Bible from Jesus time according to you guys. Show me Jesus said what's in your Bible. I at least have evidence for my Qu'ran (whether it's true or not is another question). Any mode you want (oral, paper copies).
So, in order for God to forgive me, he has to kill himself (only way after Noah and Abrahams time...sad for them they didn't get the chance for this). If a child came to my store and took a chocolate bar, should I execute myself to make it right or am I more just than God and pardon the kid? Idk how killing an innocent man makes any sense...isn't that more evil on top?
Guess what Allah did, he forgave them.
and he forgave them...
I keep asking you what Torah is it speaking of?
When I ask “what Gospel” you claim it is not the same Gospel as the Biblical account..so what Muslim Gospel do you speak of?
Btw..the passages you presented say nothing about forgiveness, & nothing indicating Adam is in any sort of heaven (or hell)…repentance is not the same as forgiveness.
I can repent all I want, it does not mean my transgressions have been forgiven. If I commit a crime, I can repent, plead for forgiveness, it does not mean the judge will grant me any stay of punishment.
Why would you think forgiveness is synonymous with repentance?
This is why i question your understanding of Scripture much less the English language.
God has the only authority to forgive sin..do you not agree?
10-16-2023, 02:12 PM
-
#118
- miscerForLulz
- Join Date: Aug 2016
- Posts: 8,464
- Rep Power: 51479
-
-
Originally Posted By Paul
It isn't, read the verse (his lord accepted his repentance).Sorry but this is on you & your false prophet..your Quran & false teacher (Mohammed) claim the Bible, the Gospels & Torah is true.
I keep asking you what Torah is it speaking of?
When I ask “what Gospel” you claim it is not the same Gospel as the Biblical account..so what Muslim Gospel do you speak of?
Btw..the passages you presented say nothing about forgiveness, & nothing indicating Adam is in any sort of heaven (or hell)…repentance is not the same as forgiveness.
I can repent all I want, it does not mean my transgressions have been forgiven. If I commit a crime, I can repent, plead for forgiveness, it does not mean the judge will grant me any stay of punishment.
Why would you think forgiveness is synonymous with repentance?
This is why i question your understanding of Scripture much less the English language.
God has the only authority to forgive sin..do you not agree?
I keep asking you what Torah is it speaking of?
When I ask “what Gospel” you claim it is not the same Gospel as the Biblical account..so what Muslim Gospel do you speak of?
Btw..the passages you presented say nothing about forgiveness, & nothing indicating Adam is in any sort of heaven (or hell)…repentance is not the same as forgiveness.
I can repent all I want, it does not mean my transgressions have been forgiven. If I commit a crime, I can repent, plead for forgiveness, it does not mean the judge will grant me any stay of punishment.
Why would you think forgiveness is synonymous with repentance?
This is why i question your understanding of Scripture much less the English language.
God has the only authority to forgive sin..do you not agree?
But in order for salvation to occur in your eyes, a human sacrifice must occur. Which idk even if the OT to you agrees...you are accountable for yourself (and not what your father has done).
Ezekiel 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
I have no issue with that btw, the Qu'ran says the exact same thing (25:70, 39:53).
Depends, yes, there's transgression between me and God but Islam has another layer...if I harm another human, I must amend that as well.
No human sacrifice required...this thread is getting repetitive and it's like 10 vs 1.
If I was rude to anyone, pardon me.
2:136
Say, ˹O believers,˺ We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.
10-16-2023, 02:42 PM
-
#119
10-16-2023, 02:51 PM
-
#120
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
-
- Paul Kreul
- Registered User
- Join Date: Apr 2006
- Location: United States
- Posts: 33,385
- Rep Power: 316746
-
-
Originally Posted By miscerForLulz⏩
It is..I don’t understand why you think forgiveness & repentance are synonymous. Do I have to go back to linking literal definitions of the words?It isn't, read the verse (his lord accepted his repentance).
But in order for salvation to occur in your eyes, a human sacrifice must occur. Which idk even if the OT to you agrees...you are accountable for yourself (and not what your father has done).
Ezekiel 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
I have no issue with that btw, the Qu'ran says the exact same thing (25:70, 39:53).
Depends, yes, there's transgression between me and God but Islam has another layer...if I harm another human, I must amend that as well.
No human sacrifice required...this thread is getting repetitive and it's like 10 vs 1.
If I was rude to anyone, pardon me.
But in order for salvation to occur in your eyes, a human sacrifice must occur. Which idk even if the OT to you agrees...you are accountable for yourself (and not what your father has done).
Ezekiel 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
I have no issue with that btw, the Qu'ran says the exact same thing (25:70, 39:53).
Depends, yes, there's transgression between me and God but Islam has another layer...if I harm another human, I must amend that as well.
No human sacrifice required...this thread is getting repetitive and it's like 10 vs 1.
If I was rude to anyone, pardon me.
God accepted Adams repentance (your book) but this does not mean he was forgiven..
From your post:
“Satan deceived them—leading to their fall from the ˹blissful˺ state they were in, and We said, “Descend from the heavens ˹to the earth˺ as enemies to each other. You will find in the earth a residence and provision for your appointed stay.”
Then Adam was inspired with words ˹of prayer˺ by his Lord, so He accepted his repentance. Surely He is the Accepter of Repentance, Most Merciful.”
Because of Adam, sin has now entered the world. Death, pain, suffering, all on account of Adams actions. Allowing Adam to live on earth is not forgiveness of his sin. Infact, it is the repercussions of it. Adam will now live a life in which he suffers, will die, will see his family die, will work, will experience pain. Adam dies as a result of his sin. Because the penalty for sin is death, a human sacrifice, his death. Do you now see.
Infact the very next verse you chose to cite only solidifies this fact.
Ezekiel 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
We don’t need to go any further than the first sentence. The penalty for sin is death. God allowed man to live on earth & accepted animal sacrifices for the sins man committed, but this was only a temporary covering that allowed man to continue living. There was no assurance of forgiveness unto eternal life.
Infact God sacrificed the first animals & covered Adam & Eve for their sin against the Lord…but they still suffered eternal death.
This is the Gospel message. Only God has the power to forgive sin, & He gave Himself as the ultimate sacrifice to cover all of mankind for their transgressions against the lord.
Isiah 1:11
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
God gave Himself, became a man to forgive the world of sin, so that all may come to know Him.
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth….And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
BTW, your Quran literally states Jesus was a spirit that was cast down into Mary…but you claim Jesus was just a man. Just lol
Bookmarks
-
- Digg
-
- del.icio.us
-
- StumbleUpon
-
-
Posting Permissions
- You may not post new threads
- You may not post replies
- You may not post attachments
- You may not edit your posts